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Decker concert grand

  • 1.  Decker concert grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-04-2022 23:25
    Hi everyone, 

    My name is Tim Foster, a new member studying to take the exams, and eager to learn from you all.

    A friend asked me to check out a Decker Brothers New York concert grand from the 1880s, so the plan is to see it on Thursday.   He knows that it would likely need a lot of work, but he loves the ornate Victorian woodwork, etc. which appear to be in great shape from the photos I've seen. 

    A few questions: if you have exposure to these pianos, what is your experience?  What kind of action might I expect to find?  Can it be tuned to A 440?  What might its unrestored value be (the owner just asked for him to make an offer)?

    I appreciate your input!


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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
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  • 2.  RE: Decker concert grand

    Posted 09-04-2022 23:51

    The Deckers I have encountered were extremely high quality pianos, but made early enough that the ones I saw were unfortunately pretty worn out.

    I suspect a Decker concert grand might need a lot to repair the ravages of time, but also might offer tremendous possibilities if done right.




    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Decker concert grand

    Member
    Posted 09-04-2022 23:55
    Check the antiquepianoshop.com website for information on Decker pianos. There are some old catalogs and ads you can look at. A piano from 1880 is likely to need quite a bit of work if it has never been rebuilt. You are talking about a 140 year old instrument. The woodwork and finish may look good in photos but the action, soundboard, pinblock, strings , damper system, lyre and pedal box may be in poor condition. Not sure you will get an unrestored value from them but antiquepianoshop may be able to give an idea.
    Bridge condition, bridge pinning, plate integrity, tuning pin torque , string rust/corrosion will be important factors in what pitch it can be tuned to. If you are a new member of PTG it would be a good idea to have a PTG Chapter member do the inspection/evaluation with you present. It takes some time to get good with inspections and you need to be thorough as well as cautious. Several years ago I inspected a very nice Kimbel grand with fancy casework, carving etc However the action needed a full rebuilding, bridge work, strings,soundboard repair, plate reguilding,pinblock replacement, key bushings, pedal repairs. Owner was not willing to put the $$$$ into it but that vintage was highly rated
    ​

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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Decker concert grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-05-2022 21:55
    Thank you for your reply!  I appreciate the recommendation to take someone along with more experience.  Logistically, that would be difficult under these circumstances for various reasons.  I plan to check the pin block torque (in inch pounds), block integrity when I remove the action, soundboard, ribs and downbearing, plate, bridge and lyre integrity, action condition (which most definitely will need at least new hammers, shanks, flanges as well as all bushings replaced), string condition, evidence of moisture and other climate damage, structural integrity, etc.

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Decker concert grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-05-2022 00:25

    First, welcome to the Guild!

    While I've not worked on a Decker grand from that era before, I have seen my share of 1800s pianos (the oldest in my database is currently 1865, not including the squares that I can't find the dates for). I'll basically echo what James wrote. There's a good chance you'll get in way over your head once work starts simply because of the age of the piano. For a complete rebuild (which it likely needs), your client is probably looking in the neighborhood of $25,000-$30,000 or so, depending on a lot of factors, of course. If that number doesn't throw him, get with a reputable rebuilder to give him a more accurate number.  

    Of course, if all he wants is a semi-functional but mostly furniture PSO you might be able to do some work to it get back to mildly functional. But don't be afraid to tell him that it's beyond reasonable salvage if that's the case. 

    As far as tuning, you should be able to bring it up to 440 but as James mentioned, be aware of rust, already broken strings, etc. And expect to have a few break if the strings appear to be original and the piano is well below pitch. That's just part of working on antique pianos. The good news is, string replacement is a lot easier to learn on a concert grand than a spinet, LOL. 



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    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Decker concert grand

    Posted 09-05-2022 01:07

    There are probably not a lot of Deckers still around, especially concert grands, and they were incredible in their day. If you don't want to take it on yourself, you might try networking with people who are experts on antique pianos and who might shepherd this one to a safe place.




    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Decker concert grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-05-2022 02:58
    Tom

    I rebuilt an old Decker once a long time ago. Nothing unusual about the action, but the pin block is morticed into the sides of the rim. It's not impossible, but it is ver difficulty to remove the pin block, instead of replacing it, I would suggest either plugging the holes and redrilling, or use epoxy. 



    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Decker concert grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-05-2022 22:00
    Thank you for sharing your experience.  Is the pin block mortised similar to a Steinway or something entirely different?  (Or perhaps this is a completely ignorant question!)

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Decker concert grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2022 02:48
    Tim.

    A Steinway pin block is doweled into the front stretcher and to the inner rim on the sides. The pin block of a Decker is built into the outer rim of the piano. It’s not impossible, but to get the pin block out you have to pull the rim out.

    Sent from my iPhone


    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Decker concert grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2022 08:14
    Tim,

    It is important to remember (and convey to others) that this instrument (and basically all pianos new and old) have a design life expectancy of roughly 40 years (yes, with extremely good environmental control and maintenance this can be extended but reality dictates otherwise).

    Add to this that the "market" for concert grands is about .01% of the already limited market for pianos these days. So what I'm trying to say is this: ANY money he puts into it is money that will not get recouped any time anywhere no matter how good it is. If he has the money and WANTS to put it in for his own satisfaction, then great...go for it. But potential worth should have no bearing whatsoever on it. It has ZERO "worth" except to the present owner. As long as he understands this reality, help him do whatever he wants.  This may sound like "Johnny Rain Cloud" but it's the sad reality today. 

    I think I've only seen one Decker Bros. piano (maybe two) in 47 years in this business. Yes...good...but worthless. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Decker concert grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2022 09:51
    Hi Peter, 

    Yes, this is all good and I will be sure to convey to him.  He has ample space and is very familiar with the needs and costs of old pianos.

    Tim

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Decker concert grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2022 12:02

    Hi Tim.

     

    I rebuilt a Decker and Sons concert a few years ago. It got a new soundboard and a WNG action. A few things come to mind. One is that it was a beautiful rosewood cabinet elaborate carved legs. I subcontracted it out for refinishing. Much of the construction of the cabinet was of chestnut.  I rent shop space from a guy who is a cabinetmaker, and that's what he thought it was. I just knew it wasn't one of the woods I typically see. The pinblock was open faced, and mortised into the rim. We made patterns for the tuning pins, then routed out and replaced the pinblock in sections. The inserted sections were epoxied in. It was then covered with veneer to hide the inserts.

     

    I had intended to replace the damper levers with a WNG kit. But the space between the back of the keyframe and the belly rail was too little for even the shortest configuration. The original dampers didn't have levers, but were attached to blocks that had bushed holes fore and aft. They moved up and down on a couple guide wires. So, I re-bushed them and kept the original configuration.

     

    Roy Peters

     




    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Decker concert grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-06-2022 15:28
    This is incredibly helpful, thank you so much!

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Decker concert grand

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-19-2022 11:51
    Just to follow up:

    The piano checked out and it's in very good condition for its age.  The friend knows that for it to play at top level it would need to be rebuilt, but in all honesty, I think he mostly fell in love with the cabinet-- intricately carved legs, etc.  

    Thank you again for your help!

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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    Original Message