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How does a fixed pitch instrument such as Sax cope with unequal tuning?

  • 1.  How does a fixed pitch instrument such as Sax cope with unequal tuning?

    Posted 20 days ago
    Dear Colleagues
    https://youtu.be/TOQkGxxheec was an exciting concert yesterday with Saxophone and strongly unequal temperament tuning. 
    If of interest, the Sax player said that the instrument was much more in tune with him than a normally tuned instrument. The pianist adapted to sustain pedal use as indicated by Adolfo at the Convention.
    What also becomes interesting is that because the instrument is more limited in its modes of vibration, like a vintage played violin, the sound of the instrument seems to improve with time. The instrument recorded in the video is an 1885 Model III  Bechstein. The improvement of sound of a Steinway can be even more spectacular. 
    Best wishes
    David P


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    David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
    Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
    +44 1342 850594
    "High Definition" Tuning
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  • 2.  RE: How does a fixed pitch instrument such as Sax cope with unequal tuning?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 20 days ago

    I would not call that a fixed pitch instrument. I asked my son how often he tuned his trumpet, after he asked me how often a piano needed tuning. He said every time he played. Came back in the room 15 minutes later and said he tuned every note he played.



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    Larry Messerly, RPT
    Bringing Harmony to Homes
    www.lacrossepianotuning.com
    ljmesserly@gmail.com
    928-899-7292
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  • 3.  RE: How does a fixed pitch instrument such as Sax cope with unequal tuning?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 20 days ago

    Clearly, that trumpet needs 'fixing'.  

    As for the sax player's comment: "...that the instrument was much more in tune with him than a normally tuned instrument", I fear that has to be taken somewhat in context  of the first few bars of the video, as well as a real-world understanding of whose role it is to make such adjustments.  Listening to the pre-performance tuning (piano and sax) would have been illuminating.



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    David Skolnik [RPT]
    Hastings-on-Hudson NY
    (917) 589-2625
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  • 4.  RE: How does a fixed pitch instrument such as Sax cope with unequal tuning?

    Posted 20 days ago
    :-) Well this is really the reality of orchestral instruments - but not all tuners are so enlightened. It's a comment that's often thrown at me is that some instruments are inherently tuned in equal temperament and therefore incompatible with unequal tuning, which really isn't the case. Possibly the first few bars of the performance might not be the best examples until the player has got into the saddle, so to speak, but his comment was also in the context of the range of his instruments from normal to alto and he reported that he had to make many fewer adjustments as such.

    This recording isn't just about pitch - it's also about use of sustain as a tool of the pianist being released from the current up-down kick-drum pedal fashion of playing caused by the muddling that modern tuning brings. In places the effects are spectacular and allow sound to be built up almost as a cloud emerging from the instrument. Adolfo Barabino referred to this at the PTA Convention https://youtu.be/dpvnphSejEM?t=8421 demonstrating Czerny style playing and then using pedal to control the sound https://youtu.be/dpvnphSejEM?t=8491

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBdaTX2qUxo, the Beethoven 1st Piano Concerto, documents how orchestra and unequally tempered piano fit together, and hope that you might enjoy the recordings.

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 7868385643





  • 5.  RE: How does a fixed pitch instrument such as Sax cope with unequal tuning?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 20 days ago
    A French horn tunes on the go, using the hand in the bell. Yes, we tune in general at the beginning of a concert, but as we play, we fine tune all the time, especially on sustained notes. 





  • 6.  RE: How does a fixed pitch instrument such as Sax cope with unequal tuning?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 19 days ago

    David P. You're getting off on the wrong foot here. Most percussion instruments are fixed tuned like the piano. Nearly all other instruments, wind, strings, voice, etc. are not fixed tuned. The musician is responsible for pitch and tone from the beginning through to the end of each individual note. Furthermore, none of these instruments are built to play in a tempered scale, all instruments are made to be internally in tune with themselves, they have to be for obvious reasons. As these instrument's overtones are fairly close to 'pure' they are tuned accordingly when they are built. However, non fixed tuned instruments have a broader range of variation whereby the musician can exercise control over both the fundamentals and partials. While we piano tuners concern ourselves with increments of a few cents or even fractions of a cent. The other instrument families have an almost infinite range of variation. In your first video you can hear the saxophone player quickly make adjustments to match the intonation of the piano in the first few bars. If one listens to to Grieg's piano concerto, in most performances or recordings, after the opening piano solo, one generally hears a big crash within the opening chords as the orchestra searches and finds a way to accommodate the tuning of the piano. While a UT will have some pure intervals that will match a typical orchestral instrument, it will also have some distinctly non pure intervals that will not be a natural fit with an orchestral instrument, so it's just as problematic as ET in that regard. 

    The musical idiom also plays a role as different musical traditions utilize different values regarding pitch and tone. Expert jazz saxophonists for example are able to bend each note of the scale a full half step below and above the centered pitch. Instrumentalists are able to vary the coloration of the partials for further expression as well. 

    There's no need to shoehorn your ideology into this inner world of orchestral instrument intonation. Orchestral instrumentalists have the ability to adjust their intonation on the fly to meet whatever contingency is necessary on a note by note basis. For orchestral instruments on a practical level, the idea that they are constrained to only 12 pitches while playing Western music is just a short hand, as I say, the actual intonation varies according the contingencies of the moment. The mindset that a musical scale is limited to 5, 8, or 12 discreet pitches is one that pertains to the world of fixed pitch instruments but not the rest of the acoustic musical world. 

    If you want to learn more about the methodologies behind intonation and technique for non fixed tuned instruments, I highly recommend FINDINGS: MY EXPERIENCE WITH THE SOPRANO SAXOPHONE by the jazz virtuoso, Steve Lacy if you can get your hands on a copy, it's out of print but is considered a masterwork detailing practices for playing the sax with much time devoted to intonation. 



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    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
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  • 7.  RE: How does a fixed pitch instrument such as Sax cope with unequal tuning?

    Posted 19 days ago
    HI Steven

    THanks so much for your detailed explanations. As I said, however, not all people in the piano world are so enlightened. It's a constant blocking theme which I've met on many occasions is how instrumentalists will cope with an unequal tempered piano. In fact I lost a client when the venue was occupied by a pianist playing a Mendelssohn concerto and worried that the orchestra couldn't cope with the unequal tuned instrument. Neither the pianist nor the orchestra had come across it before and were completely ignorant of what musically it could do and whether the orchestra could cope.

    The reality is that because unequal temperament hasn't entered music colleges where there are often two blocks - (1) the resident technicians and (2) the professors who don't know about temperament and the part that tuning plays in the music - pianists don't know about it and what they can do to musical advantage.

    The result is that increasingly we get less and less enlightened performances because the music isn't giving the natural clues to the landscape of its vibrations leaving the only expression to become louder, faster, and a function of optional sport rather than the essential communication of emotion.

    Hopefully with contributions such as yours together with listening to such recordings, we might gradually wear away the tuning barriers to better music.

    However, there is another factor here in the execution of an unequal temperament - it took me a dozen years of research and experiment to be able to apply Kirnberger III successfully. This also means that were Steinway to adopt it as an option, they would have a proprietary advantage in making better music rather than merely the reputation spread by The Tuner film with Yamaha in the lead and Steinway relegated to being merely makers of furniture.

    https://youtu.be/_3_mpqmEAsc is another recent recording by a Steinway Artist which I hope that people might enjoy. The Polonaise I find particularly wonderful.

    Best wishes

    David P
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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 7868385643





  • 8.  RE: How does a fixed pitch instrument such as Sax cope with unequal tuning?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 19 days ago

    As a former symphony clarinetist, all instrumentalists in the orchestra are taught to do fine tuning constantly, or referred to as  " just" tuning. Which basically means, be prepared to adjust your pitch as needed (per the situation).  Each instrument requires different techniques to allow flexibility in establishing good tuning for that moment. The clarinet, along with all reed instruments adjust pitch by adjusting the embouchure and lip pressure.  This would include saxophones as well.

     

     

     

    Tom Servinsky 

    Registered Piano Technician

    Concert Artist Piano Technician

    Jazz Pianist for events

    tompiano@tomservinsky.com

    772 221 1011 office

    772 260 7110 cell

     






  • 9.  RE: How does a fixed pitch instrument such as Sax cope with unequal tuning?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 19 days ago

    Back in the days of old, when I was an analogue recording engineer, I learned from studio musicians, notably string and horn players, that playing concerts, or just doing studio session gigs, that featured a piano were not their favorite gig. All non piano musicians, regardless of the instrument they play, learn how to bend notes to stay in tune with the rest of the group, but having to bend notes to stay in tune with the piano is a lot harder. Since the piano is really the only instrument in the group that you can't really touch up the tuning, or bend notes during the performance, all the rest of the musicians in the group have to do the compensation for whatever temperament the piano was tuned to. Unless a performance group is all one kind of instrument, there's really no way around this need to compensate, or bend notes, in order to play with other kinds of instruments. It's just part of being a musician in a mixed instrument performance and not any instruments fault. 



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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 10.  RE: How does a fixed pitch instrument such as Sax cope with unequal tuning?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 19 days ago

    One of my influential memories was in my senior year of high school.  I am from a family of piano tuners and musicians and my high school senior year was spent at a magnet school where I was majoring in music.  In a music lab I heard a recorded performance of a university saxophone choir that played in perfect tune.  I had never heard perfect tuning before and the sound of 7 musicians playing without equal temperament was life changing.  I love to hear chamber music and a cappella choirs and often recommend that customers try listening to well trained choirs and chamber music on YouTube.  Our finest tunings are actually poor in comparison.



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    Blaine Hebert RPT
    Duarte CA
    (626) 390-0512
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  • 11.  RE: How does a fixed pitch instrument such as Sax cope with unequal tuning?

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 15 days ago

    Sax is pretty far from being "fixed pitch." Any sax player can and will bend pitch within a much wider range than most other wind instruments.

    That said, "melody instruments" (instruments that play one note) are constantly bending pitch to meet various aims.

    For example, they might bend a note sharp as a leading tone, or they might bend a note flat as a "blue note" to meet expressive melodic goals. 

    In ensemble, they will bend pitch to blend harmonically with the other instruments. 

    Only fixed pitch instruments play in fixed temperaments. Fixed temperaments are all compromises, trying to meet the needs of the music is a "least bad" way. 

    For the piano in particular, an equal temperament that is based on maximizing the alignment of partials throughout the range will lead to a coherence of sound, reinforcement of every note when the dampers are raised. This is what pure twelfth or pure 19th tuning is aiming at, and is what PianoMeter and PianoScope do - and I guess that OnlyPure is aiming at that, but its methodology is too obscure to make any real assessment. How a piano is tuned is important for its voice as an instrument.

    For non-fixed pitch instruments, it can be a problem to align with the piano or any fixed pitch instrument, but that is the nature of the problem of tuning. The best tuning for an ensemble is one that is created on the fly, from note to note, from chord to chord: the pitches aren't fixed, they adapt. 



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    Fred Sturm
    University of New Mexico
    fssturm@gmail.com
    http://fredsturm.net
    http://www.artoftuning.com
    "We either make ourselves happy or miserable. The amount of work is the same." - Carlos Casteneda
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