Pianotech

  • 1.  Kernberger III

    Posted 11-10-2025 18:28

    I have seen a lot of discussion lately on Kernberger II in postings and in the Journal.  What I haven't found is a description of exactly how you tune that temperament.  I first tried to tune Kerberber III based on what was included with PianoScope but then in searching for other info, I came across a set of instructions that gave a result very different from PianoScope's version.  Where can I find the definition in a form I can tune from?

    Thanks



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    [Tom] [Brantigan]
    [Brantigan piano Services]
    [Folsom] [CA]
    [410-371-1617]
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  • 2.  RE: Kernberger III

    Posted 11-10-2025 19:37
    If you're interested and will keep the system entirely private to yourself I can send you instructions.

    I use the Jahn CTS5 which is an analogue phase comparator, quick, immediate, with a raw and unprocessed display which enables more precise pull and pin setting in real time than any phone-app can do. On page 18 of http://www.tuning-set.de/Beda5E.pdf you'll find the offsets for a good variety of temperaments. The machine is on the one hand apparently expensive https://www.thomann.co.uk/jahn_tla_cts5.htm but you'll get your money back in a handful of tunings and, importantly, it will enable you to work faster. It's so accurate that you can, if pushed, tune unisons with it. This is not a call to divert into the discussion of the merits of different ETDs or apps, as there is a specific reason why I use this machine and why it's given my system success.

    Tim Foster has tamed other equipment but I can't stress enough the facility of the CTS5 to listen very specifically to what we want it to listen to, rather than how an algorithm chosen by someone else might capriciously decide.

    This is important to taming Kirnberger III.

    KIII is the strongest temperament that can be tuned, if tamed, without the worst 3rds becoming unpleasant. Tuned conventionally whether by ear or by app, it can be too strong and Kellner is the strongest to which one can go, and without necessarily achieving the resonance that we can find by using the machine tuning.

    From the manual, specifically KIII
    Starting at A and ascending:
     0 +7.5 +4.0 +12.0 +2.0 +4.0 +6.0 +2.0 +9.5 0 +8.0 +4.0  


    It took me 15 years of research to learn how to tame it and in that my Mentor, Michael Gamble, gave me the final clue.

    If tuning conventionally then tune Kellner first.

    For me, the transitions from C mi to E mi to C ma with the last three songs recorded at https://youtu.be/h3c0avKoQZI?t=3506 are why conventionally tuned piano music no longer offers satisfaction. The adoption of KIII as standard is owed to Sir Richard Stilgoe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stilgoe who preferred its stronger colours to those of Kellner.

    Best wishes

    David P

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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 7868385643





  • 3.  RE: Kernberger III

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-11-2025 00:36

    Hi Thomas,

    Kirnberger II does not have any stronger 3rds than does K3, just more of them. The offsets for the 1771 version (K2) can be found at https://rollingball.com/TemperamentsFrames.htm under Well temperaments, then Kirnberger.

    Some of the instructions from Kirnberger's lifetime started the temperament on C#, but starting on C is also fairly simple. Were you looking for offsets or aural instructions?



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    Tim Foster RPT
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Kernberger III

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 11-11-2025 00:45
      |   view attached

    Here are the K3 offsets from my ETD, but admittedly, it will sound too strong if you set normal tuning parameters in your ETD. David's formula really works.



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    Tim Foster RPT
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Kernberger III

    Posted 11-12-2025 18:17
    Thanks everyone for the help.  I think I have my problem figured out.  I was expecting perfect fifth at middle C through E but alas that is not correct.  They should be narrow fifths.  That makes things work.

    Tom

    Thomas Brantigan
    Piano Technician
    tombrantigan@gmail.com
    Cell: 410-371-1617
    www.pianotraditions.com


    All strange wordings and spellings are brought to you by Siri!










    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Kernberger III

    Posted 11-12-2025 19:47
    Aah - the concept of the well tempered tunings and their magic is that you have perfect thirds where fifths are tempered, the perfection of the thirds making the fifths irrelevant, and perfect fifths where the thirds are stretched. So the home keys Bb F C G have nearer perfect thirds, CE being perfect, and C G D E fifths are tempered.

    It's Meantone in the home keys and Pythagorean in the remote ones with a transition between

    Best wishes

    David P


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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 7868385643



    Original Message