Pianotech

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Alan, there are some options.

The much discussed Piano Sens, while pricey will do the job. At the other end of the spectrum is the PitchGrabber by Peterson at about $25. It is a piezo pick up that you can clip onto a rib, it will plug straight into your iPod and it works well with my Verituner as I expect it would with any app. The piezo is not as sensitive as a mic, or the PSens, I wouldn't try to sample a piano with it. But I haven't found any big deviations when I compared it to the mic, I haven't definitively gone through section by section to find deviations. I use it every other week when I tune in a large room on a cruise ship, the timing is such (between off and on boarding guests) that my tuning time coincides with vacuuming the room, up to 3 vacuums going simultaneously. sigh. But, using the pitch grabber makes the device oblivious to the noise. One thing you realize is how limited that is as our ear hand coordination is always in effect even when we are relying on the device, let alone tuning unisons.

There are still the old school pickups that Sanderson used to sell floating around and I've heard they work. While the pitch grabber is built to feed straight into a digital device, there are other piezo systems, Barcus Berry makes a dedicated piezo pick up for piano, model 4000xl, but these require a preamp, they are a little pricey but there are a million of them around as they have been on the market for 50 years in one form or another, you could probably track one down to try and they would work. (there must be people working with piezos at CalArts)

I tuned through sound checks in indoor arenas many times and that was mostly back when I was an aural tuner, of course the drum throne is often situated directly behind the piano. Somehow I always got through it. But I was young and strong back then, lol. I did get pretty good at hearing through the din. The best option is to tune during the lunch break, if they're behind schedule you're out of luck but it's worth inquiring to see if you can get that slot.

>>Robin Whitehouse has made a youtube video of a method he's devised using in-ear monitors for use in noisy situations, looks a little complicated but it also looks like it works. Titled aptly enough, 'How to tune pianos in loud places' he walks you through his method.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

I also use the Pitch Grabber and for me it works great. I have taken the pin out of the clip so I can put the sensor directly on the soundboard, bridge or anywhere else. I put some sticky tack stuff on it to keep it in place. NOTE: You have to be sure and have an adapter that is intended for a mic and not headphones. At first it didn't work at all and then someone told me to be sure to use an adapter for headphones. After that it was great! I have taken readings with it and it turned out fine. For such an inexpensive device it's just amazing. I've used it with PianoMeter and PiaTune. I tuned the strings individually and it turned out fine. 

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

I also use the Pitch Grabber and for me it works great. I have taken the pin out of the clip so I can put the sensor directly on the soundboard, bridge or anywhere else. I put some sticky tack stuff on it to keep it in place. NOTE: You have to be sure and have an adapter that is intended for a mic and not headphones. At first it didn't work at all and then someone told me to be sure to use an adapter for headphones. After that it was great! I have taken readings with it and it turned out fine. For such an inexpensive device it's just amazing. I've used it with PianoMeter and PiaTune. I tuned the strings individually and it turned out fine. 

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

Thanks, Scott. Just ordered a Pitch Grabber.

I also use the Pitch Grabber and for me it works great. I have taken the pin out of the clip so I can put the sensor directly on the soundboard, bridge or anywhere else. I put some sticky tack stuff on it to keep it in place. NOTE: You have to be sure and have an adapter that is intended for a mic and not headphones. At first it didn't work at all and then someone told me to be sure to use an adapter for headphones. After that it was great! I have taken readings with it and it turned out fine. For such an inexpensive device it's just amazing. I've used it with PianoMeter and PiaTune. I tuned the strings individually and it turned out fine. 

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

I rarely tune in situations where I have to use the Pitch Grabber, but have found that placing it about 8" away from the bridge somewhere in the mid to upper treble is a good location for tuning. Auto note stepping didn't work as well, so I opted for manual note switching using PiaTune. I use an older iphone with a headphone input, so the PG just plugs in and works. I also use active noise control earbuds for tuning which seems to help me focus on the piano in noisy situations, though I use them for every tuning. (1 More brand - under $30 https://usa.1more.com/products/1more-true-wireless-headphones-q21)

Ron Koval

Thanks, Scott. Just ordered a Pitch Grabber.

I also use the Pitch Grabber and for me it works great. I have taken the pin out of the clip so I can put the sensor directly on the soundboard, bridge or anywhere else. I put some sticky tack stuff on it to keep it in place. NOTE: You have to be sure and have an adapter that is intended for a mic and not headphones. At first it didn't work at all and then someone told me to be sure to use an adapter for headphones. After that it was great! I have taken readings with it and it turned out fine. For such an inexpensive device it's just amazing. I've used it with PianoMeter and PiaTune. I tuned the strings individually and it turned out fine. 

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

Original Message:
Sent: 10/29/2025 6:47:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

For what it's worth, the Accu-pickup works with the software ETD's too -- I've tested it with TuneLab specifically but I see no reason why it would confuse anything else.  In most cases you just need an audio interface that can handle instrument level inputs.  There are several of these on the market, mainly marketed for recording electric guitars.  It is certainly going to be noisier than what is claimed by PianoSens, and may exert a greater magnetic pull on the strings?  Though in my experience not so much that it perturbs the ETD reading.

I found it worked best with the magnetic base set on the bridge, with the pickup rails floating above the strings being tuned.  AFAIK this is how it was intended to be used.  Just setting it on the plate typically did not give a usable signal.

General caution!

Be aware that with any magnetic pickup the inharmonicity measurements will be a little different than with a conventional mic.  This is not a big deal, it just means that if you're going to use it to tune, you should to use it to measure inharmonicity as well if your ETD does those two things in separate steps.

Inhmarmonicity measurements with piezos such as the Pitch Grabber, last I recall, don't deviate so much from what you get with a mic.  But personally I'd rather not mix and match there either.

In practice I've never had occasion to use any of this stuff, as I just don't tune in very many noisy environments.  But I do keep a Pitch Grabber around in case.

------------------------------
Nathan Monteleone RPT
Fort Worth TX
(817) 675-9494
nbmont@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-30-2025 11:44
From: Robert Anderson
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 10/29/2025 6:47:00 PM
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

I will look into that Fairchild pickup from Inventronics, Robert. Since we have multiple SATs at the school, if this pickup is not too expensive, it could come in handy in conjunction with an Accu-Tuner. Thanks for the tip!

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

I will look into that Fairchild pickup from Inventronics, Robert. Since we have multiple SATs at the school, if this pickup is not too expensive, it could come in handy in conjunction with an Accu-Tuner. Thanks for the tip!

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

IMO, the Pianosens sensor is one of those underappreciated technologies that has the potential to revolutionize certain things. In this case it is solving an unadmitted problem (for obvious reasons) of accuracy and repeatability. But as is fairly typical, resistance to it is not because it doesn't work, but rather it is perceived as a threat. 

It was a similar situation back in the days  when the "Doc" was developing the SOT and then the SAT. Al was astute enough to recognize this and kept at it patiently, and (as they say) the rest is history. However, he KNEW there was an inherent weakness in the ETD world (the microphone) but was unable at the time to truly solve it with the tech of the time. A select few of similarly astute techs have recognized the value of this current tech and what it's potential is. And it is likely to get even better in time...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

the magnetic pickup is perhaps the ideal tool for Alan's original problem - how to feed clear signals to an ETD in very noisy situations. 

The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display. 

I recently saw something about optical guitar pickups (very expensive) that looked like an interesting technology.

Ron Koval

IMO, the Pianosens sensor is one of those underappreciated technologies that has the potential to revolutionize certain things. In this case it is solving an unadmitted problem (for obvious reasons) of accuracy and repeatability. But as is fairly typical, resistance to it is not because it doesn't work, but rather it is perceived as a threat. 

It was a similar situation back in the days  when the "Doc" was developing the SOT and then the SAT. Al was astute enough to recognize this and kept at it patiently, and (as they say) the rest is history. However, he KNEW there was an inherent weakness in the ETD world (the microphone) but was unable at the time to truly solve it with the tech of the time. A select few of similarly astute techs have recognized the value of this current tech and what it's potential is. And it is likely to get even better in time...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

the magnetic pickup is perhaps the ideal tool for Alan's original problem - how to feed clear signals to an ETD in very noisy situations. 

The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display. 

I recently saw something about optical guitar pickups (very expensive) that looked like an interesting technology.

Ron Koval

IMO, the Pianosens sensor is one of those underappreciated technologies that has the potential to revolutionize certain things. In this case it is solving an unadmitted problem (for obvious reasons) of accuracy and repeatability. But as is fairly typical, resistance to it is not because it doesn't work, but rather it is perceived as a threat. 

It was a similar situation back in the days  when the "Doc" was developing the SOT and then the SAT. Al was astute enough to recognize this and kept at it patiently, and (as they say) the rest is history. However, he KNEW there was an inherent weakness in the ETD world (the microphone) but was unable at the time to truly solve it with the tech of the time. A select few of similarly astute techs have recognized the value of this current tech and what it's potential is. And it is likely to get even better in time...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

While the an over the string magnetic sensor will probably give the strongest signal, the downside is that they are labor intensive. In addition to the 88 hand movements to position them from note to note, there are 2 additional movements whenever you use them to go back and make checks for drift etc.and they are bigger movements over intervals and octaves. This is a disincentive to making a lot of checks and could rub up against time constraints in the situation Alan was in. Mics or the less sensitive piezo pickups, require little or no extra placement issues.

Don Gilmore, inventor of the self-tuning piano, uses infrared sensors to read the frequencies of the strings and induction to control the temperature of the strings, lots of hardware. After over 20 years, still a work in progress. https://www.youtube.com/@dongilmore8681

the magnetic pickup is perhaps the ideal tool for Alan's original problem - how to feed clear signals to an ETD in very noisy situations. 

The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display. 

I recently saw something about optical guitar pickups (very expensive) that looked like an interesting technology.

Ron Koval

IMO, the Pianosens sensor is one of those underappreciated technologies that has the potential to revolutionize certain things. In this case it is solving an unadmitted problem (for obvious reasons) of accuracy and repeatability. But as is fairly typical, resistance to it is not because it doesn't work, but rather it is perceived as a threat. 

It was a similar situation back in the days  when the "Doc" was developing the SOT and then the SAT. Al was astute enough to recognize this and kept at it patiently, and (as they say) the rest is history. However, he KNEW there was an inherent weakness in the ETD world (the microphone) but was unable at the time to truly solve it with the tech of the time. A select few of similarly astute techs have recognized the value of this current tech and what it's potential is. And it is likely to get even better in time...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

While the an over the string magnetic sensor will probably give the strongest signal, the downside is that they are labor intensive. In addition to the 88 hand movements to position them from note to note, there are 2 additional movements whenever you use them to go back and make checks for drift etc.and they are bigger movements over intervals and octaves. This is a disincentive to making a lot of checks and could rub up against time constraints in the situation Alan was in. Mics or the less sensitive piezo pickups, require little or no extra placement issues.

Don Gilmore, inventor of the self-tuning piano, uses infrared sensors to read the frequencies of the strings and induction to control the temperature of the strings, lots of hardware. After over 20 years, still a work in progress. https://www.youtube.com/@dongilmore8681

the magnetic pickup is perhaps the ideal tool for Alan's original problem - how to feed clear signals to an ETD in very noisy situations. 

The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display. 

I recently saw something about optical guitar pickups (very expensive) that looked like an interesting technology.

Ron Koval

IMO, the Pianosens sensor is one of those underappreciated technologies that has the potential to revolutionize certain things. In this case it is solving an unadmitted problem (for obvious reasons) of accuracy and repeatability. But as is fairly typical, resistance to it is not because it doesn't work, but rather it is perceived as a threat. 

It was a similar situation back in the days  when the "Doc" was developing the SOT and then the SAT. Al was astute enough to recognize this and kept at it patiently, and (as they say) the rest is history. However, he KNEW there was an inherent weakness in the ETD world (the microphone) but was unable at the time to truly solve it with the tech of the time. A select few of similarly astute techs have recognized the value of this current tech and what it's potential is. And it is likely to get even better in time...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Moving the Pianosens is not an issue.  Inserting a mute takes longer.  Dealing with the wire and setting it up takes some time, maybe a minute or two. 

It will also work if you put it on the plate, but has a much more reliable and stronger signal if it's over the string(s).  I have tuned spinets putting it on the pressure bar, especially where there's no room in the treble because of the dampers.  It does help tuning spinets and consoles where the mic seems to pick up other vibrations in the treble from undampened strings.  I usually put it down below the hammer line past the dampers.  Bit of a do, but it works.  False beats- it won't cure them, use your ears.

Also, there are two poles side by side inside the unit.  If you put the end of the sensor (where one pole is underneath) directly over the string you're tuning, it gives a stronger and steadier reading in Pianoscope.  It does have a magnet on the bottom which holds it in place, but the magnet doesn't affect the sensor unless you place the magnet on the string you're tuning (and you wouldn't put it there).

Just a few observations..

While the an over the string magnetic sensor will probably give the strongest signal, the downside is that they are labor intensive. In addition to the 88 hand movements to position them from note to note, there are 2 additional movements whenever you use them to go back and make checks for drift etc.and they are bigger movements over intervals and octaves. This is a disincentive to making a lot of checks and could rub up against time constraints in the situation Alan was in. Mics or the less sensitive piezo pickups, require little or no extra placement issues.

Don Gilmore, inventor of the self-tuning piano, uses infrared sensors to read the frequencies of the strings and induction to control the temperature of the strings, lots of hardware. After over 20 years, still a work in progress. https://www.youtube.com/@dongilmore8681

the magnetic pickup is perhaps the ideal tool for Alan's original problem - how to feed clear signals to an ETD in very noisy situations. 

The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display. 

I recently saw something about optical guitar pickups (very expensive) that looked like an interesting technology.

Ron Koval

IMO, the Pianosens sensor is one of those underappreciated technologies that has the potential to revolutionize certain things. In this case it is solving an unadmitted problem (for obvious reasons) of accuracy and repeatability. But as is fairly typical, resistance to it is not because it doesn't work, but rather it is perceived as a threat. 

It was a similar situation back in the days  when the "Doc" was developing the SOT and then the SAT. Al was astute enough to recognize this and kept at it patiently, and (as they say) the rest is history. However, he KNEW there was an inherent weakness in the ETD world (the microphone) but was unable at the time to truly solve it with the tech of the time. A select few of similarly astute techs have recognized the value of this current tech and what it's potential is. And it is likely to get even better in time...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Ron, you wrote the following: 

"The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display".

My response is that (and I know some will argue this till the cows come home) the primary problem is the microphone. The microphone works just the ear, in that, it is position-dependent for serious accuracy. Now, while things are "better" than they were back in the '90's when I started testing this out, it still remains that if you move the device it MAY read the same note differently than in its original recording position. I just proved it again yesterday afternoon in the shop (just to see if I could be proven wrong for which I would not be writing this post):

Using Piatune (currently my favorite for at least one reason) I tuned the entire center section of a KG-2 (center stings only), making absolutely sure that my tuning stability could not be accused of fooling me by going over it and over it, checking with the ETD (which remained in one place only). Then, I started moving the ETD around (basically back and forth between bass/tenor strut (original) and first treble strut. At first I was quite impressed (thinking maybe I'm wrong), but then it started on one note, the difference being roughly 1.5 cents from one position to the other (BTW its an iphone). I said "uh-oh"...and moved it repeatedly back and forth from OP to NP and the difference was consistent. OP read as tuned, NP read flat by 1-1.5 cents. The majority were pretty consistent, however there were at least three notes (for the time I had available) in the section that deviated up to about 1.5 cents when the device was moved. 

Admittedly this is a better record than what I've experienced before (could also be the iPhone), and very small position changes did not bring about significant reading changes. This was ONLY in the center section on the center strings. 

"So what's the big deal?" some will ask. In the day to day world of normal tuning its NOT a big deal (obviously). But in a "not-so-normal" situation such as an examination, it COULD become a big deal. And if one was trying to recreate a carefully constructed concert tuning in a noisy environment, it MIGHT become a big deal. It was a deal-breaker for me back when I started messing with it (of course not knowing the inherent problem and assuming it was the "cat's meow" of accuracy, which it proved not to be). 

Okay, I've ranted long enough. I WILL repeat the experiment with Tunelab and PianoMeter (both on my Android phone) and report my findings. If anyone thinks I'm "cooking the books" to justify my viewpoint I'm willing to make detailed records (including a video) to prove it. 

It is an issue for me. I know it is NOT an issue for many. I accept that...but I do know that the PS sensor almost completely solves the problem.  Feel free to ignore me. 😌 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Moving the Pianosens is not an issue.  Inserting a mute takes longer.  Dealing with the wire and setting it up takes some time, maybe a minute or two. 

It will also work if you put it on the plate, but has a much more reliable and stronger signal if it's over the string(s).  I have tuned spinets putting it on the pressure bar, especially where there's no room in the treble because of the dampers.  It does help tuning spinets and consoles where the mic seems to pick up other vibrations in the treble from undampened strings.  I usually put it down below the hammer line past the dampers.  Bit of a do, but it works.  False beats- it won't cure them, use your ears.

Also, there are two poles side by side inside the unit.  If you put the end of the sensor (where one pole is underneath) directly over the string you're tuning, it gives a stronger and steadier reading in Pianoscope.  It does have a magnet on the bottom which holds it in place, but the magnet doesn't affect the sensor unless you place the magnet on the string you're tuning (and you wouldn't put it there).

Just a few observations..

While the an over the string magnetic sensor will probably give the strongest signal, the downside is that they are labor intensive. In addition to the 88 hand movements to position them from note to note, there are 2 additional movements whenever you use them to go back and make checks for drift etc.and they are bigger movements over intervals and octaves. This is a disincentive to making a lot of checks and could rub up against time constraints in the situation Alan was in. Mics or the less sensitive piezo pickups, require little or no extra placement issues.

Don Gilmore, inventor of the self-tuning piano, uses infrared sensors to read the frequencies of the strings and induction to control the temperature of the strings, lots of hardware. After over 20 years, still a work in progress. https://www.youtube.com/@dongilmore8681

the magnetic pickup is perhaps the ideal tool for Alan's original problem - how to feed clear signals to an ETD in very noisy situations. 

The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display. 

I recently saw something about optical guitar pickups (very expensive) that looked like an interesting technology.

Ron Koval

IMO, the Pianosens sensor is one of those underappreciated technologies that has the potential to revolutionize certain things. In this case it is solving an unadmitted problem (for obvious reasons) of accuracy and repeatability. But as is fairly typical, resistance to it is not because it doesn't work, but rather it is perceived as a threat. 

It was a similar situation back in the days  when the "Doc" was developing the SOT and then the SAT. Al was astute enough to recognize this and kept at it patiently, and (as they say) the rest is history. However, he KNEW there was an inherent weakness in the ETD world (the microphone) but was unable at the time to truly solve it with the tech of the time. A select few of similarly astute techs have recognized the value of this current tech and what it's potential is. And it is likely to get even better in time...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 11/1/2025 1:23:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Ron, you wrote the following: 

"The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display".

My response is that (and I know some will argue this till the cows come home) the primary problem is the microphone. The microphone works just the ear, in that, it is position-dependent for serious accuracy. Now, while things are "better" than they were back in the '90's when I started testing this out, it still remains that if you move the device it MAY read the same note differently than in its original recording position. I just proved it again yesterday afternoon in the shop (just to see if I could be proven wrong for which I would not be writing this post):

Using Piatune (currently my favorite for at least one reason) I tuned the entire center section of a KG-2 (center stings only), making absolutely sure that my tuning stability could not be accused of fooling me by going over it and over it, checking with the ETD (which remained in one place only). Then, I started moving the ETD around (basically back and forth between bass/tenor strut (original) and first treble strut. At first I was quite impressed (thinking maybe I'm wrong), but then it started on one note, the difference being roughly 1.5 cents from one position to the other (BTW its an iphone). I said "uh-oh"...and moved it repeatedly back and forth from OP to NP and the difference was consistent. OP read as tuned, NP read flat by 1-1.5 cents. The majority were pretty consistent, however there were at least three notes (for the time I had available) in the section that deviated up to about 1.5 cents when the device was moved. 

Admittedly this is a better record than what I've experienced before (could also be the iPhone), and very small position changes did not bring about significant reading changes. This was ONLY in the center section on the center strings. 

"So what's the big deal?" some will ask. In the day to day world of normal tuning its NOT a big deal (obviously). But in a "not-so-normal" situation such as an examination, it COULD become a big deal. And if one was trying to recreate a carefully constructed concert tuning in a noisy environment, it MIGHT become a big deal. It was a deal-breaker for me back when I started messing with it (of course not knowing the inherent problem and assuming it was the "cat's meow" of accuracy, which it proved not to be). 

Okay, I've ranted long enough. I WILL repeat the experiment with Tunelab and PianoMeter (both on my Android phone) and report my findings. If anyone thinks I'm "cooking the books" to justify my viewpoint I'm willing to make detailed records (including a video) to prove it. 

It is an issue for me. I know it is NOT an issue for many. I accept that...but I do know that the PS sensor almost completely solves the problem.  Feel free to ignore me. 😌 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 18:45
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Moving the Pianosens is not an issue.  Inserting a mute takes longer.  Dealing with the wire and setting it up takes some time, maybe a minute or two. 

It will also work if you put it on the plate, but has a much more reliable and stronger signal if it's over the string(s).  I have tuned spinets putting it on the pressure bar, especially where there's no room in the treble because of the dampers.  It does help tuning spinets and consoles where the mic seems to pick up other vibrations in the treble from undampened strings.  I usually put it down below the hammer line past the dampers.  Bit of a do, but it works.  False beats- it won't cure them, use your ears.

Also, there are two poles side by side inside the unit.  If you put the end of the sensor (where one pole is underneath) directly over the string you're tuning, it gives a stronger and steadier reading in Pianoscope.  It does have a magnet on the bottom which holds it in place, but the magnet doesn't affect the sensor unless you place the magnet on the string you're tuning (and you wouldn't put it there).

Just a few observations..

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 15:32
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

While the an over the string magnetic sensor will probably give the strongest signal, the downside is that they are labor intensive. In addition to the 88 hand movements to position them from note to note, there are 2 additional movements whenever you use them to go back and make checks for drift etc.and they are bigger movements over intervals and octaves. This is a disincentive to making a lot of checks and could rub up against time constraints in the situation Alan was in. Mics or the less sensitive piezo pickups, require little or no extra placement issues.

Don Gilmore, inventor of the self-tuning piano, uses infrared sensors to read the frequencies of the strings and induction to control the temperature of the strings, lots of hardware. After over 20 years, still a work in progress. https://www.youtube.com/@dongilmore8681

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 13:10
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 10/31/2025 9:21:00 AM
From: Ron Koval
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

the magnetic pickup is perhaps the ideal tool for Alan's original problem - how to feed clear signals to an ETD in very noisy situations. 

The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display. 

I recently saw something about optical guitar pickups (very expensive) that looked like an interesting technology.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

IMO, the Pianosens sensor is one of those underappreciated technologies that has the potential to revolutionize certain things. In this case it is solving an unadmitted problem (for obvious reasons) of accuracy and repeatability. But as is fairly typical, resistance to it is not because it doesn't work, but rather it is perceived as a threat. 

It was a similar situation back in the days  when the "Doc" was developing the SOT and then the SAT. Al was astute enough to recognize this and kept at it patiently, and (as they say) the rest is history. However, he KNEW there was an inherent weakness in the ETD world (the microphone) but was unable at the time to truly solve it with the tech of the time. A select few of similarly astute techs have recognized the value of this current tech and what it's potential is. And it is likely to get even better in time...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 00:20
From: Randall Woltz
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

If anyone out there would like to try the PianoSens, I'll be happy to loan it out and you can see for yourself. Let me know.

Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 10/30/2025 9:58:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-30-2025 12:40
From: Matthew Walworth
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Nathan,

I did PianoMeter yesterday afternoon and the results were interesting. I was a little more meticulous this time and actually wrote down my findings (although that is out in the shop and I'm sitting in the house sipping coffee ☕️ at the moment) . Here is what happened: 

I retuned the same center section using PM. The first point of interest to me was that PM's interpretation of ET on this piano was measurably better than PT. Anomalies that showed up in PT (and needed manual correction) were very nicely redistributed to create a virtually ideal progression of all intervals. AND, with far less time involved with measuring IH (I like that!) Kudos to Anthony on this. 

Then I started my alternating between struts exactly as with PT. Of course, both apps "wiggle" on their indicators requiring some interpretation so I've tried to be as fair as I can be in this regard. What I found with PM was that, although MORE anomalies seemed to appear (I admit I did not write down the PT findings), the DEGREE of fluctuation was significantly less, with the biggest discrepancies at no more than .7 cents. Most were in the .2 - .4 cent range (which is pretty tolerable). 

I can go back and redo the test with PT and actually record the findings (not too big of a deal) or you can just take my word for it. The notables (pun intended) on that one were obviously well over one cent. 

No bass or treble areas were tested in this...just the middle. The purpose is simply to demonstrate that there IS a degree of error (again...to be fair, very much as with the human ear). 

My experience with the PS sensor has demonstrated significant improvement in PM needle indicator stability (improving accuracy) and NO fluctuation resulting from device location movement (for obvious reasons). PT has not been quite as responsive in this regard, but does show improvement. 

I will follow this up with the actual data I recorded later today. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2025 21:26
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 11/1/2025 1:23:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Ron, you wrote the following: 

"The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display".

My response is that (and I know some will argue this till the cows come home) the primary problem is the microphone. The microphone works just the ear, in that, it is position-dependent for serious accuracy. Now, while things are "better" than they were back in the '90's when I started testing this out, it still remains that if you move the device it MAY read the same note differently than in its original recording position. I just proved it again yesterday afternoon in the shop (just to see if I could be proven wrong for which I would not be writing this post):

Using Piatune (currently my favorite for at least one reason) I tuned the entire center section of a KG-2 (center stings only), making absolutely sure that my tuning stability could not be accused of fooling me by going over it and over it, checking with the ETD (which remained in one place only). Then, I started moving the ETD around (basically back and forth between bass/tenor strut (original) and first treble strut. At first I was quite impressed (thinking maybe I'm wrong), but then it started on one note, the difference being roughly 1.5 cents from one position to the other (BTW its an iphone). I said "uh-oh"...and moved it repeatedly back and forth from OP to NP and the difference was consistent. OP read as tuned, NP read flat by 1-1.5 cents. The majority were pretty consistent, however there were at least three notes (for the time I had available) in the section that deviated up to about 1.5 cents when the device was moved. 

Admittedly this is a better record than what I've experienced before (could also be the iPhone), and very small position changes did not bring about significant reading changes. This was ONLY in the center section on the center strings. 

"So what's the big deal?" some will ask. In the day to day world of normal tuning its NOT a big deal (obviously). But in a "not-so-normal" situation such as an examination, it COULD become a big deal. And if one was trying to recreate a carefully constructed concert tuning in a noisy environment, it MIGHT become a big deal. It was a deal-breaker for me back when I started messing with it (of course not knowing the inherent problem and assuming it was the "cat's meow" of accuracy, which it proved not to be). 

Okay, I've ranted long enough. I WILL repeat the experiment with Tunelab and PianoMeter (both on my Android phone) and report my findings. If anyone thinks I'm "cooking the books" to justify my viewpoint I'm willing to make detailed records (including a video) to prove it. 

It is an issue for me. I know it is NOT an issue for many. I accept that...but I do know that the PS sensor almost completely solves the problem.  Feel free to ignore me. 😌 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 18:45
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Moving the Pianosens is not an issue.  Inserting a mute takes longer.  Dealing with the wire and setting it up takes some time, maybe a minute or two. 

It will also work if you put it on the plate, but has a much more reliable and stronger signal if it's over the string(s).  I have tuned spinets putting it on the pressure bar, especially where there's no room in the treble because of the dampers.  It does help tuning spinets and consoles where the mic seems to pick up other vibrations in the treble from undampened strings.  I usually put it down below the hammer line past the dampers.  Bit of a do, but it works.  False beats- it won't cure them, use your ears.

Also, there are two poles side by side inside the unit.  If you put the end of the sensor (where one pole is underneath) directly over the string you're tuning, it gives a stronger and steadier reading in Pianoscope.  It does have a magnet on the bottom which holds it in place, but the magnet doesn't affect the sensor unless you place the magnet on the string you're tuning (and you wouldn't put it there).

Just a few observations..

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 15:32
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

While the an over the string magnetic sensor will probably give the strongest signal, the downside is that they are labor intensive. In addition to the 88 hand movements to position them from note to note, there are 2 additional movements whenever you use them to go back and make checks for drift etc.and they are bigger movements over intervals and octaves. This is a disincentive to making a lot of checks and could rub up against time constraints in the situation Alan was in. Mics or the less sensitive piezo pickups, require little or no extra placement issues.

Don Gilmore, inventor of the self-tuning piano, uses infrared sensors to read the frequencies of the strings and induction to control the temperature of the strings, lots of hardware. After over 20 years, still a work in progress. https://www.youtube.com/@dongilmore8681

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 13:10
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 10/31/2025 9:21:00 AM
From: Ron Koval
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

the magnetic pickup is perhaps the ideal tool for Alan's original problem - how to feed clear signals to an ETD in very noisy situations. 

The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display. 

I recently saw something about optical guitar pickups (very expensive) that looked like an interesting technology.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

IMO, the Pianosens sensor is one of those underappreciated technologies that has the potential to revolutionize certain things. In this case it is solving an unadmitted problem (for obvious reasons) of accuracy and repeatability. But as is fairly typical, resistance to it is not because it doesn't work, but rather it is perceived as a threat. 

It was a similar situation back in the days  when the "Doc" was developing the SOT and then the SAT. Al was astute enough to recognize this and kept at it patiently, and (as they say) the rest is history. However, he KNEW there was an inherent weakness in the ETD world (the microphone) but was unable at the time to truly solve it with the tech of the time. A select few of similarly astute techs have recognized the value of this current tech and what it's potential is. And it is likely to get even better in time...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 00:20
From: Randall Woltz
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

If anyone out there would like to try the PianoSens, I'll be happy to loan it out and you can see for yourself. Let me know.

Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 10/30/2025 9:58:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-30-2025 12:40
From: Matthew Walworth
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Peter, a video would be helpful. As you say, the readings tend to twitch. It would be good to see the range in that context rather than static numbers.

Thanks for the effort in this.

Nathan,

I did PianoMeter yesterday afternoon and the results were interesting. I was a little more meticulous this time and actually wrote down my findings (although that is out in the shop and I'm sitting in the house sipping coffee ☕️ at the moment) . Here is what happened: 

I retuned the same center section using PM. The first point of interest to me was that PM's interpretation of ET on this piano was measurably better than PT. Anomalies that showed up in PT (and needed manual correction) were very nicely redistributed to create a virtually ideal progression of all intervals. AND, with far less time involved with measuring IH (I like that!) Kudos to Anthony on this. 

Then I started my alternating between struts exactly as with PT. Of course, both apps "wiggle" on their indicators requiring some interpretation so I've tried to be as fair as I can be in this regard. What I found with PM was that, although MORE anomalies seemed to appear (I admit I did not write down the PT findings), the DEGREE of fluctuation was significantly less, with the biggest discrepancies at no more than .7 cents. Most were in the .2 - .4 cent range (which is pretty tolerable). 

I can go back and redo the test with PT and actually record the findings (not too big of a deal) or you can just take my word for it. The notables (pun intended) on that one were obviously well over one cent. 

No bass or treble areas were tested in this...just the middle. The purpose is simply to demonstrate that there IS a degree of error (again...to be fair, very much as with the human ear). 

My experience with the PS sensor has demonstrated significant improvement in PM needle indicator stability (improving accuracy) and NO fluctuation resulting from device location movement (for obvious reasons). PT has not been quite as responsive in this regard, but does show improvement. 

I will follow this up with the actual data I recorded later today. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2025 21:26
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 11/1/2025 1:23:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Ron, you wrote the following: 

"The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display".

My response is that (and I know some will argue this till the cows come home) the primary problem is the microphone. The microphone works just the ear, in that, it is position-dependent for serious accuracy. Now, while things are "better" than they were back in the '90's when I started testing this out, it still remains that if you move the device it MAY read the same note differently than in its original recording position. I just proved it again yesterday afternoon in the shop (just to see if I could be proven wrong for which I would not be writing this post):

Using Piatune (currently my favorite for at least one reason) I tuned the entire center section of a KG-2 (center stings only), making absolutely sure that my tuning stability could not be accused of fooling me by going over it and over it, checking with the ETD (which remained in one place only). Then, I started moving the ETD around (basically back and forth between bass/tenor strut (original) and first treble strut. At first I was quite impressed (thinking maybe I'm wrong), but then it started on one note, the difference being roughly 1.5 cents from one position to the other (BTW its an iphone). I said "uh-oh"...and moved it repeatedly back and forth from OP to NP and the difference was consistent. OP read as tuned, NP read flat by 1-1.5 cents. The majority were pretty consistent, however there were at least three notes (for the time I had available) in the section that deviated up to about 1.5 cents when the device was moved. 

Admittedly this is a better record than what I've experienced before (could also be the iPhone), and very small position changes did not bring about significant reading changes. This was ONLY in the center section on the center strings. 

"So what's the big deal?" some will ask. In the day to day world of normal tuning its NOT a big deal (obviously). But in a "not-so-normal" situation such as an examination, it COULD become a big deal. And if one was trying to recreate a carefully constructed concert tuning in a noisy environment, it MIGHT become a big deal. It was a deal-breaker for me back when I started messing with it (of course not knowing the inherent problem and assuming it was the "cat's meow" of accuracy, which it proved not to be). 

Okay, I've ranted long enough. I WILL repeat the experiment with Tunelab and PianoMeter (both on my Android phone) and report my findings. If anyone thinks I'm "cooking the books" to justify my viewpoint I'm willing to make detailed records (including a video) to prove it. 

It is an issue for me. I know it is NOT an issue for many. I accept that...but I do know that the PS sensor almost completely solves the problem.  Feel free to ignore me. 😌 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 18:45
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Moving the Pianosens is not an issue.  Inserting a mute takes longer.  Dealing with the wire and setting it up takes some time, maybe a minute or two. 

It will also work if you put it on the plate, but has a much more reliable and stronger signal if it's over the string(s).  I have tuned spinets putting it on the pressure bar, especially where there's no room in the treble because of the dampers.  It does help tuning spinets and consoles where the mic seems to pick up other vibrations in the treble from undampened strings.  I usually put it down below the hammer line past the dampers.  Bit of a do, but it works.  False beats- it won't cure them, use your ears.

Also, there are two poles side by side inside the unit.  If you put the end of the sensor (where one pole is underneath) directly over the string you're tuning, it gives a stronger and steadier reading in Pianoscope.  It does have a magnet on the bottom which holds it in place, but the magnet doesn't affect the sensor unless you place the magnet on the string you're tuning (and you wouldn't put it there).

Just a few observations..

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 15:32
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

While the an over the string magnetic sensor will probably give the strongest signal, the downside is that they are labor intensive. In addition to the 88 hand movements to position them from note to note, there are 2 additional movements whenever you use them to go back and make checks for drift etc.and they are bigger movements over intervals and octaves. This is a disincentive to making a lot of checks and could rub up against time constraints in the situation Alan was in. Mics or the less sensitive piezo pickups, require little or no extra placement issues.

Don Gilmore, inventor of the self-tuning piano, uses infrared sensors to read the frequencies of the strings and induction to control the temperature of the strings, lots of hardware. After over 20 years, still a work in progress. https://www.youtube.com/@dongilmore8681

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 13:10
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 10/31/2025 9:21:00 AM
From: Ron Koval
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

the magnetic pickup is perhaps the ideal tool for Alan's original problem - how to feed clear signals to an ETD in very noisy situations. 

The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display. 

I recently saw something about optical guitar pickups (very expensive) that looked like an interesting technology.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

IMO, the Pianosens sensor is one of those underappreciated technologies that has the potential to revolutionize certain things. In this case it is solving an unadmitted problem (for obvious reasons) of accuracy and repeatability. But as is fairly typical, resistance to it is not because it doesn't work, but rather it is perceived as a threat. 

It was a similar situation back in the days  when the "Doc" was developing the SOT and then the SAT. Al was astute enough to recognize this and kept at it patiently, and (as they say) the rest is history. However, he KNEW there was an inherent weakness in the ETD world (the microphone) but was unable at the time to truly solve it with the tech of the time. A select few of similarly astute techs have recognized the value of this current tech and what it's potential is. And it is likely to get even better in time...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 00:20
From: Randall Woltz
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

If anyone out there would like to try the PianoSens, I'll be happy to loan it out and you can see for yourself. Let me know.

Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 10/30/2025 9:58:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-30-2025 12:40
From: Matthew Walworth
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

So, here's the promised data (sorry no video as yet)...

Just to be clear, when the device was returned to the original spot used when tuning (the bass/tenor break strut), in every case the reading returned to exactly what it was originally. No issues there.  Only the notes showing a change are shown below. Otherwise there was no difference (28 notes total)

Note   Change (cents)

C#3     +.5

D#3      -.3

E3         -.3

A3        +.2

B3        +.6~.7

D#4      -.4

F#4      -.6

G#4      +.5

So, a little better than 25% showed any change worth noting. You can draw your own conclusions. And, I'm perfectly fine with "nothing here". 

My next one will be with Tunelab soon. (I'll be restringing the piano so teardown soon). 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter, a video would be helpful. As you say, the readings tend to twitch. It would be good to see the range in that context rather than static numbers.

Thanks for the effort in this.

Nathan,

I did PianoMeter yesterday afternoon and the results were interesting. I was a little more meticulous this time and actually wrote down my findings (although that is out in the shop and I'm sitting in the house sipping coffee ☕️ at the moment) . Here is what happened: 

I retuned the same center section using PM. The first point of interest to me was that PM's interpretation of ET on this piano was measurably better than PT. Anomalies that showed up in PT (and needed manual correction) were very nicely redistributed to create a virtually ideal progression of all intervals. AND, with far less time involved with measuring IH (I like that!) Kudos to Anthony on this. 

Then I started my alternating between struts exactly as with PT. Of course, both apps "wiggle" on their indicators requiring some interpretation so I've tried to be as fair as I can be in this regard. What I found with PM was that, although MORE anomalies seemed to appear (I admit I did not write down the PT findings), the DEGREE of fluctuation was significantly less, with the biggest discrepancies at no more than .7 cents. Most were in the .2 - .4 cent range (which is pretty tolerable). 

I can go back and redo the test with PT and actually record the findings (not too big of a deal) or you can just take my word for it. The notables (pun intended) on that one were obviously well over one cent. 

No bass or treble areas were tested in this...just the middle. The purpose is simply to demonstrate that there IS a degree of error (again...to be fair, very much as with the human ear). 

My experience with the PS sensor has demonstrated significant improvement in PM needle indicator stability (improving accuracy) and NO fluctuation resulting from device location movement (for obvious reasons). PT has not been quite as responsive in this regard, but does show improvement. 

I will follow this up with the actual data I recorded later today. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2025 21:26
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 11/1/2025 1:23:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Ron, you wrote the following: 

"The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display".

My response is that (and I know some will argue this till the cows come home) the primary problem is the microphone. The microphone works just the ear, in that, it is position-dependent for serious accuracy. Now, while things are "better" than they were back in the '90's when I started testing this out, it still remains that if you move the device it MAY read the same note differently than in its original recording position. I just proved it again yesterday afternoon in the shop (just to see if I could be proven wrong for which I would not be writing this post):

Using Piatune (currently my favorite for at least one reason) I tuned the entire center section of a KG-2 (center stings only), making absolutely sure that my tuning stability could not be accused of fooling me by going over it and over it, checking with the ETD (which remained in one place only). Then, I started moving the ETD around (basically back and forth between bass/tenor strut (original) and first treble strut. At first I was quite impressed (thinking maybe I'm wrong), but then it started on one note, the difference being roughly 1.5 cents from one position to the other (BTW its an iphone). I said "uh-oh"...and moved it repeatedly back and forth from OP to NP and the difference was consistent. OP read as tuned, NP read flat by 1-1.5 cents. The majority were pretty consistent, however there were at least three notes (for the time I had available) in the section that deviated up to about 1.5 cents when the device was moved. 

Admittedly this is a better record than what I've experienced before (could also be the iPhone), and very small position changes did not bring about significant reading changes. This was ONLY in the center section on the center strings. 

"So what's the big deal?" some will ask. In the day to day world of normal tuning its NOT a big deal (obviously). But in a "not-so-normal" situation such as an examination, it COULD become a big deal. And if one was trying to recreate a carefully constructed concert tuning in a noisy environment, it MIGHT become a big deal. It was a deal-breaker for me back when I started messing with it (of course not knowing the inherent problem and assuming it was the "cat's meow" of accuracy, which it proved not to be). 

Okay, I've ranted long enough. I WILL repeat the experiment with Tunelab and PianoMeter (both on my Android phone) and report my findings. If anyone thinks I'm "cooking the books" to justify my viewpoint I'm willing to make detailed records (including a video) to prove it. 

It is an issue for me. I know it is NOT an issue for many. I accept that...but I do know that the PS sensor almost completely solves the problem.  Feel free to ignore me. 😌 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 18:45
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Moving the Pianosens is not an issue.  Inserting a mute takes longer.  Dealing with the wire and setting it up takes some time, maybe a minute or two. 

It will also work if you put it on the plate, but has a much more reliable and stronger signal if it's over the string(s).  I have tuned spinets putting it on the pressure bar, especially where there's no room in the treble because of the dampers.  It does help tuning spinets and consoles where the mic seems to pick up other vibrations in the treble from undampened strings.  I usually put it down below the hammer line past the dampers.  Bit of a do, but it works.  False beats- it won't cure them, use your ears.

Also, there are two poles side by side inside the unit.  If you put the end of the sensor (where one pole is underneath) directly over the string you're tuning, it gives a stronger and steadier reading in Pianoscope.  It does have a magnet on the bottom which holds it in place, but the magnet doesn't affect the sensor unless you place the magnet on the string you're tuning (and you wouldn't put it there).

Just a few observations..

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 15:32
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

While the an over the string magnetic sensor will probably give the strongest signal, the downside is that they are labor intensive. In addition to the 88 hand movements to position them from note to note, there are 2 additional movements whenever you use them to go back and make checks for drift etc.and they are bigger movements over intervals and octaves. This is a disincentive to making a lot of checks and could rub up against time constraints in the situation Alan was in. Mics or the less sensitive piezo pickups, require little or no extra placement issues.

Don Gilmore, inventor of the self-tuning piano, uses infrared sensors to read the frequencies of the strings and induction to control the temperature of the strings, lots of hardware. After over 20 years, still a work in progress. https://www.youtube.com/@dongilmore8681

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 13:10
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 10/31/2025 9:21:00 AM
From: Ron Koval
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

the magnetic pickup is perhaps the ideal tool for Alan's original problem - how to feed clear signals to an ETD in very noisy situations. 

The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display. 

I recently saw something about optical guitar pickups (very expensive) that looked like an interesting technology.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

IMO, the Pianosens sensor is one of those underappreciated technologies that has the potential to revolutionize certain things. In this case it is solving an unadmitted problem (for obvious reasons) of accuracy and repeatability. But as is fairly typical, resistance to it is not because it doesn't work, but rather it is perceived as a threat. 

It was a similar situation back in the days  when the "Doc" was developing the SOT and then the SAT. Al was astute enough to recognize this and kept at it patiently, and (as they say) the rest is history. However, he KNEW there was an inherent weakness in the ETD world (the microphone) but was unable at the time to truly solve it with the tech of the time. A select few of similarly astute techs have recognized the value of this current tech and what it's potential is. And it is likely to get even better in time...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 00:20
From: Randall Woltz
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

If anyone out there would like to try the PianoSens, I'll be happy to loan it out and you can see for yourself. Let me know.

Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 10/30/2025 9:58:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-30-2025 12:40
From: Matthew Walworth
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Peter, I tend to agree with you that what the ETDs "hear" is similar to our ears which changes positionally. I've set up a Peterson Strobe tuner and Peterson tuner app and found that while most of the time they agree, sometimes they don't agree until I move one of the devices. 

I'm trying to study string, bridge and soundboard interaction. For years I thought that the string sent vibration to the soundboard which amplified the string's vibration, period. I'm now understanding that the relationship is a little more complicated, and that while the string is the primary driver, the soundboard does then drive the string to a lesser extent. The soundboard has its own modes can slightly change the frequency that is heard, since the soundboard is the amplifier. This symbiotic relationship of string and soundboard creates a complexity to the piano's sound. Because of this, it makes sense to me that as the ETDs change position that they are receiving feedback from different parts of the soundboard which can also have slightly different modes. I certainly seem to hear differing beat rates in different positions.

Though I haven't yet used PS (besides briefly at the Reno convention), it makes sense that the reading is more stable. On the other hand, what we actually hear from a piano is not simply the vibration of a string, but the soundboard, which is far more complex. For this reason, I have some doubts about PS since it is not "hearing" the complex relationship we do in the real world. However, I would have to try it before making any conclusion for myself- my objections are not based in experience with the tool.

Perhaps my understanding needs some correction, and I'm open to that. It's a fascinating subject, nonetheless.

So, here's the promised data (sorry no video as yet)...

Just to be clear, when the device was returned to the original spot used when tuning (the bass/tenor break strut), in every case the reading returned to exactly what it was originally. No issues there.  Only the notes showing a change are shown below. Otherwise there was no difference (28 notes total)

Note   Change (cents)

C#3     +.5

D#3      -.3

E3         -.3

A3        +.2

B3        +.6~.7

D#4      -.4

F#4      -.6

G#4      +.5

So, a little better than 25% showed any change worth noting. You can draw your own conclusions. And, I'm perfectly fine with "nothing here". 

My next one will be with Tunelab soon. (I'll be restringing the piano so teardown soon). 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter, a video would be helpful. As you say, the readings tend to twitch. It would be good to see the range in that context rather than static numbers.

Thanks for the effort in this.

Nathan,

I did PianoMeter yesterday afternoon and the results were interesting. I was a little more meticulous this time and actually wrote down my findings (although that is out in the shop and I'm sitting in the house sipping coffee ☕️ at the moment) . Here is what happened: 

I retuned the same center section using PM. The first point of interest to me was that PM's interpretation of ET on this piano was measurably better than PT. Anomalies that showed up in PT (and needed manual correction) were very nicely redistributed to create a virtually ideal progression of all intervals. AND, with far less time involved with measuring IH (I like that!) Kudos to Anthony on this. 

Then I started my alternating between struts exactly as with PT. Of course, both apps "wiggle" on their indicators requiring some interpretation so I've tried to be as fair as I can be in this regard. What I found with PM was that, although MORE anomalies seemed to appear (I admit I did not write down the PT findings), the DEGREE of fluctuation was significantly less, with the biggest discrepancies at no more than .7 cents. Most were in the .2 - .4 cent range (which is pretty tolerable). 

I can go back and redo the test with PT and actually record the findings (not too big of a deal) or you can just take my word for it. The notables (pun intended) on that one were obviously well over one cent. 

No bass or treble areas were tested in this...just the middle. The purpose is simply to demonstrate that there IS a degree of error (again...to be fair, very much as with the human ear). 

My experience with the PS sensor has demonstrated significant improvement in PM needle indicator stability (improving accuracy) and NO fluctuation resulting from device location movement (for obvious reasons). PT has not been quite as responsive in this regard, but does show improvement. 

I will follow this up with the actual data I recorded later today. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2025 21:26
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 11/1/2025 1:23:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Ron, you wrote the following: 

"The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display".

My response is that (and I know some will argue this till the cows come home) the primary problem is the microphone. The microphone works just the ear, in that, it is position-dependent for serious accuracy. Now, while things are "better" than they were back in the '90's when I started testing this out, it still remains that if you move the device it MAY read the same note differently than in its original recording position. I just proved it again yesterday afternoon in the shop (just to see if I could be proven wrong for which I would not be writing this post):

Using Piatune (currently my favorite for at least one reason) I tuned the entire center section of a KG-2 (center stings only), making absolutely sure that my tuning stability could not be accused of fooling me by going over it and over it, checking with the ETD (which remained in one place only). Then, I started moving the ETD around (basically back and forth between bass/tenor strut (original) and first treble strut. At first I was quite impressed (thinking maybe I'm wrong), but then it started on one note, the difference being roughly 1.5 cents from one position to the other (BTW its an iphone). I said "uh-oh"...and moved it repeatedly back and forth from OP to NP and the difference was consistent. OP read as tuned, NP read flat by 1-1.5 cents. The majority were pretty consistent, however there were at least three notes (for the time I had available) in the section that deviated up to about 1.5 cents when the device was moved. 

Admittedly this is a better record than what I've experienced before (could also be the iPhone), and very small position changes did not bring about significant reading changes. This was ONLY in the center section on the center strings. 

"So what's the big deal?" some will ask. In the day to day world of normal tuning its NOT a big deal (obviously). But in a "not-so-normal" situation such as an examination, it COULD become a big deal. And if one was trying to recreate a carefully constructed concert tuning in a noisy environment, it MIGHT become a big deal. It was a deal-breaker for me back when I started messing with it (of course not knowing the inherent problem and assuming it was the "cat's meow" of accuracy, which it proved not to be). 

Okay, I've ranted long enough. I WILL repeat the experiment with Tunelab and PianoMeter (both on my Android phone) and report my findings. If anyone thinks I'm "cooking the books" to justify my viewpoint I'm willing to make detailed records (including a video) to prove it. 

It is an issue for me. I know it is NOT an issue for many. I accept that...but I do know that the PS sensor almost completely solves the problem.  Feel free to ignore me. 😌 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 18:45
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Moving the Pianosens is not an issue.  Inserting a mute takes longer.  Dealing with the wire and setting it up takes some time, maybe a minute or two. 

It will also work if you put it on the plate, but has a much more reliable and stronger signal if it's over the string(s).  I have tuned spinets putting it on the pressure bar, especially where there's no room in the treble because of the dampers.  It does help tuning spinets and consoles where the mic seems to pick up other vibrations in the treble from undampened strings.  I usually put it down below the hammer line past the dampers.  Bit of a do, but it works.  False beats- it won't cure them, use your ears.

Also, there are two poles side by side inside the unit.  If you put the end of the sensor (where one pole is underneath) directly over the string you're tuning, it gives a stronger and steadier reading in Pianoscope.  It does have a magnet on the bottom which holds it in place, but the magnet doesn't affect the sensor unless you place the magnet on the string you're tuning (and you wouldn't put it there).

Just a few observations..

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 15:32
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

While the an over the string magnetic sensor will probably give the strongest signal, the downside is that they are labor intensive. In addition to the 88 hand movements to position them from note to note, there are 2 additional movements whenever you use them to go back and make checks for drift etc.and they are bigger movements over intervals and octaves. This is a disincentive to making a lot of checks and could rub up against time constraints in the situation Alan was in. Mics or the less sensitive piezo pickups, require little or no extra placement issues.

Don Gilmore, inventor of the self-tuning piano, uses infrared sensors to read the frequencies of the strings and induction to control the temperature of the strings, lots of hardware. After over 20 years, still a work in progress. https://www.youtube.com/@dongilmore8681

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 13:10
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 10/31/2025 9:21:00 AM
From: Ron Koval
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

the magnetic pickup is perhaps the ideal tool for Alan's original problem - how to feed clear signals to an ETD in very noisy situations. 

The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display. 

I recently saw something about optical guitar pickups (very expensive) that looked like an interesting technology.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

IMO, the Pianosens sensor is one of those underappreciated technologies that has the potential to revolutionize certain things. In this case it is solving an unadmitted problem (for obvious reasons) of accuracy and repeatability. But as is fairly typical, resistance to it is not because it doesn't work, but rather it is perceived as a threat. 

It was a similar situation back in the days  when the "Doc" was developing the SOT and then the SAT. Al was astute enough to recognize this and kept at it patiently, and (as they say) the rest is history. However, he KNEW there was an inherent weakness in the ETD world (the microphone) but was unable at the time to truly solve it with the tech of the time. A select few of similarly astute techs have recognized the value of this current tech and what it's potential is. And it is likely to get even better in time...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 00:20
From: Randall Woltz
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

If anyone out there would like to try the PianoSens, I'll be happy to loan it out and you can see for yourself. Let me know.

Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 10/30/2025 9:58:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-30-2025 12:40
From: Matthew Walworth
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Peter, just to fill in the methodology, what other positions did you move the device/mic to? What do you mean by "between struts"? When I tested it on an upright I tested in the middle and extreme right and left.

Tim, good points. Remember, we aren't listening to a frequency but multiple frequencies that have different periods and can move in opposing directions and aren't necessarily consistent from note to note. Another factor that hasn't been entered are reflections coming from outside the piano. Ultimately where the perception is processed is psychoacoustically, which tends to defy verbal description, we get pretty quickly to how it "seems". And it's all happening over time. Aurally it's going to be a little blurry, an ETD gives us an objective 'measuring stick' reading but we have to justify it relative to how things sound to us regardless of the physics or math. 

And tuning is a special circumstance compared to the end product of playing music. Multiple notes, damping, dynamics, una corda, etc. All affecting how the soundboard responds. We are working on a baseline level but music soon becomes very complex. 

Acousticians have something to say about all this. A lot, actually.

Peter, I tend to agree with you that what the ETDs "hear" is similar to our ears which changes positionally. I've set up a Peterson Strobe tuner and Peterson tuner app and found that while most of the time they agree, sometimes they don't agree until I move one of the devices. 

I'm trying to study string, bridge and soundboard interaction. For years I thought that the string sent vibration to the soundboard which amplified the string's vibration, period. I'm now understanding that the relationship is a little more complicated, and that while the string is the primary driver, the soundboard does then drive the string to a lesser extent. The soundboard has its own modes can slightly change the frequency that is heard, since the soundboard is the amplifier. This symbiotic relationship of string and soundboard creates a complexity to the piano's sound. Because of this, it makes sense to me that as the ETDs change position that they are receiving feedback from different parts of the soundboard which can also have slightly different modes. I certainly seem to hear differing beat rates in different positions.

Though I haven't yet used PS (besides briefly at the Reno convention), it makes sense that the reading is more stable. On the other hand, what we actually hear from a piano is not simply the vibration of a string, but the soundboard, which is far more complex. For this reason, I have some doubts about PS since it is not "hearing" the complex relationship we do in the real world. However, I would have to try it before making any conclusion for myself- my objections are not based in experience with the tool.

Perhaps my understanding needs some correction, and I'm open to that. It's a fascinating subject, nonetheless.

So, here's the promised data (sorry no video as yet)...

Just to be clear, when the device was returned to the original spot used when tuning (the bass/tenor break strut), in every case the reading returned to exactly what it was originally. No issues there.  Only the notes showing a change are shown below. Otherwise there was no difference (28 notes total)

Note   Change (cents)

C#3     +.5

D#3      -.3

E3         -.3

A3        +.2

B3        +.6~.7

D#4      -.4

F#4      -.6

G#4      +.5

So, a little better than 25% showed any change worth noting. You can draw your own conclusions. And, I'm perfectly fine with "nothing here". 

My next one will be with Tunelab soon. (I'll be restringing the piano so teardown soon). 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter, a video would be helpful. As you say, the readings tend to twitch. It would be good to see the range in that context rather than static numbers.

Thanks for the effort in this.

Nathan,

I did PianoMeter yesterday afternoon and the results were interesting. I was a little more meticulous this time and actually wrote down my findings (although that is out in the shop and I'm sitting in the house sipping coffee ☕️ at the moment) . Here is what happened: 

I retuned the same center section using PM. The first point of interest to me was that PM's interpretation of ET on this piano was measurably better than PT. Anomalies that showed up in PT (and needed manual correction) were very nicely redistributed to create a virtually ideal progression of all intervals. AND, with far less time involved with measuring IH (I like that!) Kudos to Anthony on this. 

Then I started my alternating between struts exactly as with PT. Of course, both apps "wiggle" on their indicators requiring some interpretation so I've tried to be as fair as I can be in this regard. What I found with PM was that, although MORE anomalies seemed to appear (I admit I did not write down the PT findings), the DEGREE of fluctuation was significantly less, with the biggest discrepancies at no more than .7 cents. Most were in the .2 - .4 cent range (which is pretty tolerable). 

I can go back and redo the test with PT and actually record the findings (not too big of a deal) or you can just take my word for it. The notables (pun intended) on that one were obviously well over one cent. 

No bass or treble areas were tested in this...just the middle. The purpose is simply to demonstrate that there IS a degree of error (again...to be fair, very much as with the human ear). 

My experience with the PS sensor has demonstrated significant improvement in PM needle indicator stability (improving accuracy) and NO fluctuation resulting from device location movement (for obvious reasons). PT has not been quite as responsive in this regard, but does show improvement. 

I will follow this up with the actual data I recorded later today. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2025 21:26
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 11/1/2025 1:23:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Ron, you wrote the following: 

"The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display".

My response is that (and I know some will argue this till the cows come home) the primary problem is the microphone. The microphone works just the ear, in that, it is position-dependent for serious accuracy. Now, while things are "better" than they were back in the '90's when I started testing this out, it still remains that if you move the device it MAY read the same note differently than in its original recording position. I just proved it again yesterday afternoon in the shop (just to see if I could be proven wrong for which I would not be writing this post):

Using Piatune (currently my favorite for at least one reason) I tuned the entire center section of a KG-2 (center stings only), making absolutely sure that my tuning stability could not be accused of fooling me by going over it and over it, checking with the ETD (which remained in one place only). Then, I started moving the ETD around (basically back and forth between bass/tenor strut (original) and first treble strut. At first I was quite impressed (thinking maybe I'm wrong), but then it started on one note, the difference being roughly 1.5 cents from one position to the other (BTW its an iphone). I said "uh-oh"...and moved it repeatedly back and forth from OP to NP and the difference was consistent. OP read as tuned, NP read flat by 1-1.5 cents. The majority were pretty consistent, however there were at least three notes (for the time I had available) in the section that deviated up to about 1.5 cents when the device was moved. 

Admittedly this is a better record than what I've experienced before (could also be the iPhone), and very small position changes did not bring about significant reading changes. This was ONLY in the center section on the center strings. 

"So what's the big deal?" some will ask. In the day to day world of normal tuning its NOT a big deal (obviously). But in a "not-so-normal" situation such as an examination, it COULD become a big deal. And if one was trying to recreate a carefully constructed concert tuning in a noisy environment, it MIGHT become a big deal. It was a deal-breaker for me back when I started messing with it (of course not knowing the inherent problem and assuming it was the "cat's meow" of accuracy, which it proved not to be). 

Okay, I've ranted long enough. I WILL repeat the experiment with Tunelab and PianoMeter (both on my Android phone) and report my findings. If anyone thinks I'm "cooking the books" to justify my viewpoint I'm willing to make detailed records (including a video) to prove it. 

It is an issue for me. I know it is NOT an issue for many. I accept that...but I do know that the PS sensor almost completely solves the problem.  Feel free to ignore me. 😌 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 18:45
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Moving the Pianosens is not an issue.  Inserting a mute takes longer.  Dealing with the wire and setting it up takes some time, maybe a minute or two. 

It will also work if you put it on the plate, but has a much more reliable and stronger signal if it's over the string(s).  I have tuned spinets putting it on the pressure bar, especially where there's no room in the treble because of the dampers.  It does help tuning spinets and consoles where the mic seems to pick up other vibrations in the treble from undampened strings.  I usually put it down below the hammer line past the dampers.  Bit of a do, but it works.  False beats- it won't cure them, use your ears.

Also, there are two poles side by side inside the unit.  If you put the end of the sensor (where one pole is underneath) directly over the string you're tuning, it gives a stronger and steadier reading in Pianoscope.  It does have a magnet on the bottom which holds it in place, but the magnet doesn't affect the sensor unless you place the magnet on the string you're tuning (and you wouldn't put it there).

Just a few observations..

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 15:32
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

While the an over the string magnetic sensor will probably give the strongest signal, the downside is that they are labor intensive. In addition to the 88 hand movements to position them from note to note, there are 2 additional movements whenever you use them to go back and make checks for drift etc.and they are bigger movements over intervals and octaves. This is a disincentive to making a lot of checks and could rub up against time constraints in the situation Alan was in. Mics or the less sensitive piezo pickups, require little or no extra placement issues.

Don Gilmore, inventor of the self-tuning piano, uses infrared sensors to read the frequencies of the strings and induction to control the temperature of the strings, lots of hardware. After over 20 years, still a work in progress. https://www.youtube.com/@dongilmore8681

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 13:10
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 10/31/2025 9:21:00 AM
From: Ron Koval
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

the magnetic pickup is perhaps the ideal tool for Alan's original problem - how to feed clear signals to an ETD in very noisy situations. 

The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display. 

I recently saw something about optical guitar pickups (very expensive) that looked like an interesting technology.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

IMO, the Pianosens sensor is one of those underappreciated technologies that has the potential to revolutionize certain things. In this case it is solving an unadmitted problem (for obvious reasons) of accuracy and repeatability. But as is fairly typical, resistance to it is not because it doesn't work, but rather it is perceived as a threat. 

It was a similar situation back in the days  when the "Doc" was developing the SOT and then the SAT. Al was astute enough to recognize this and kept at it patiently, and (as they say) the rest is history. However, he KNEW there was an inherent weakness in the ETD world (the microphone) but was unable at the time to truly solve it with the tech of the time. A select few of similarly astute techs have recognized the value of this current tech and what it's potential is. And it is likely to get even better in time...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 00:20
From: Randall Woltz
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

If anyone out there would like to try the PianoSens, I'll be happy to loan it out and you can see for yourself. Let me know.

Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 10/30/2025 9:58:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-30-2025 12:40
From: Matthew Walworth
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

So, here's the promised data (sorry no video as yet)...

Just to be clear, when the device was returned to the original spot used when tuning (the bass/tenor break strut), in every case the reading returned to exactly what it was originally. No issues there.  Only the notes showing a change are shown below. Otherwise there was no difference (28 notes total)

Note   Change (cents)

C#3     +.5

D#3      -.3

E3         -.3

A3        +.2

B3        +.6~.7

D#4      -.4

F#4      -.6

G#4      +.5

So, a little better than 25% showed any change worth noting. You can draw your own conclusions. And, I'm perfectly fine with "nothing here". 

My next one will be with Tunelab soon. (I'll be restringing the piano so teardown soon). 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter, a video would be helpful. As you say, the readings tend to twitch. It would be good to see the range in that context rather than static numbers.

Thanks for the effort in this.

Nathan,

I did PianoMeter yesterday afternoon and the results were interesting. I was a little more meticulous this time and actually wrote down my findings (although that is out in the shop and I'm sitting in the house sipping coffee ☕️ at the moment) . Here is what happened: 

I retuned the same center section using PM. The first point of interest to me was that PM's interpretation of ET on this piano was measurably better than PT. Anomalies that showed up in PT (and needed manual correction) were very nicely redistributed to create a virtually ideal progression of all intervals. AND, with far less time involved with measuring IH (I like that!) Kudos to Anthony on this. 

Then I started my alternating between struts exactly as with PT. Of course, both apps "wiggle" on their indicators requiring some interpretation so I've tried to be as fair as I can be in this regard. What I found with PM was that, although MORE anomalies seemed to appear (I admit I did not write down the PT findings), the DEGREE of fluctuation was significantly less, with the biggest discrepancies at no more than .7 cents. Most were in the .2 - .4 cent range (which is pretty tolerable). 

I can go back and redo the test with PT and actually record the findings (not too big of a deal) or you can just take my word for it. The notables (pun intended) on that one were obviously well over one cent. 

No bass or treble areas were tested in this...just the middle. The purpose is simply to demonstrate that there IS a degree of error (again...to be fair, very much as with the human ear). 

My experience with the PS sensor has demonstrated significant improvement in PM needle indicator stability (improving accuracy) and NO fluctuation resulting from device location movement (for obvious reasons). PT has not been quite as responsive in this regard, but does show improvement. 

I will follow this up with the actual data I recorded later today. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2025 21:26
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 11/1/2025 1:23:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Ron, you wrote the following: 

"The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display".

My response is that (and I know some will argue this till the cows come home) the primary problem is the microphone. The microphone works just the ear, in that, it is position-dependent for serious accuracy. Now, while things are "better" than they were back in the '90's when I started testing this out, it still remains that if you move the device it MAY read the same note differently than in its original recording position. I just proved it again yesterday afternoon in the shop (just to see if I could be proven wrong for which I would not be writing this post):

Using Piatune (currently my favorite for at least one reason) I tuned the entire center section of a KG-2 (center stings only), making absolutely sure that my tuning stability could not be accused of fooling me by going over it and over it, checking with the ETD (which remained in one place only). Then, I started moving the ETD around (basically back and forth between bass/tenor strut (original) and first treble strut. At first I was quite impressed (thinking maybe I'm wrong), but then it started on one note, the difference being roughly 1.5 cents from one position to the other (BTW its an iphone). I said "uh-oh"...and moved it repeatedly back and forth from OP to NP and the difference was consistent. OP read as tuned, NP read flat by 1-1.5 cents. The majority were pretty consistent, however there were at least three notes (for the time I had available) in the section that deviated up to about 1.5 cents when the device was moved. 

Admittedly this is a better record than what I've experienced before (could also be the iPhone), and very small position changes did not bring about significant reading changes. This was ONLY in the center section on the center strings. 

"So what's the big deal?" some will ask. In the day to day world of normal tuning its NOT a big deal (obviously). But in a "not-so-normal" situation such as an examination, it COULD become a big deal. And if one was trying to recreate a carefully constructed concert tuning in a noisy environment, it MIGHT become a big deal. It was a deal-breaker for me back when I started messing with it (of course not knowing the inherent problem and assuming it was the "cat's meow" of accuracy, which it proved not to be). 

Okay, I've ranted long enough. I WILL repeat the experiment with Tunelab and PianoMeter (both on my Android phone) and report my findings. If anyone thinks I'm "cooking the books" to justify my viewpoint I'm willing to make detailed records (including a video) to prove it. 

It is an issue for me. I know it is NOT an issue for many. I accept that...but I do know that the PS sensor almost completely solves the problem.  Feel free to ignore me. 😌 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 18:45
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Moving the Pianosens is not an issue.  Inserting a mute takes longer.  Dealing with the wire and setting it up takes some time, maybe a minute or two. 

It will also work if you put it on the plate, but has a much more reliable and stronger signal if it's over the string(s).  I have tuned spinets putting it on the pressure bar, especially where there's no room in the treble because of the dampers.  It does help tuning spinets and consoles where the mic seems to pick up other vibrations in the treble from undampened strings.  I usually put it down below the hammer line past the dampers.  Bit of a do, but it works.  False beats- it won't cure them, use your ears.

Also, there are two poles side by side inside the unit.  If you put the end of the sensor (where one pole is underneath) directly over the string you're tuning, it gives a stronger and steadier reading in Pianoscope.  It does have a magnet on the bottom which holds it in place, but the magnet doesn't affect the sensor unless you place the magnet on the string you're tuning (and you wouldn't put it there).

Just a few observations..

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 15:32
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

While the an over the string magnetic sensor will probably give the strongest signal, the downside is that they are labor intensive. In addition to the 88 hand movements to position them from note to note, there are 2 additional movements whenever you use them to go back and make checks for drift etc.and they are bigger movements over intervals and octaves. This is a disincentive to making a lot of checks and could rub up against time constraints in the situation Alan was in. Mics or the less sensitive piezo pickups, require little or no extra placement issues.

Don Gilmore, inventor of the self-tuning piano, uses infrared sensors to read the frequencies of the strings and induction to control the temperature of the strings, lots of hardware. After over 20 years, still a work in progress. https://www.youtube.com/@dongilmore8681

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 13:10
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 10/31/2025 9:21:00 AM
From: Ron Koval
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

the magnetic pickup is perhaps the ideal tool for Alan's original problem - how to feed clear signals to an ETD in very noisy situations. 

The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display. 

I recently saw something about optical guitar pickups (very expensive) that looked like an interesting technology.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

IMO, the Pianosens sensor is one of those underappreciated technologies that has the potential to revolutionize certain things. In this case it is solving an unadmitted problem (for obvious reasons) of accuracy and repeatability. But as is fairly typical, resistance to it is not because it doesn't work, but rather it is perceived as a threat. 

It was a similar situation back in the days  when the "Doc" was developing the SOT and then the SAT. Al was astute enough to recognize this and kept at it patiently, and (as they say) the rest is history. However, he KNEW there was an inherent weakness in the ETD world (the microphone) but was unable at the time to truly solve it with the tech of the time. A select few of similarly astute techs have recognized the value of this current tech and what it's potential is. And it is likely to get even better in time...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 00:20
From: Randall Woltz
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

If anyone out there would like to try the PianoSens, I'll be happy to loan it out and you can see for yourself. Let me know.

Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 10/30/2025 9:58:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-30-2025 12:40
From: Matthew Walworth
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Peter. Could your ear tell that the B3. D#4 was a cent wider when your ear was moved!

So, here's the promised data (sorry no video as yet)...

Just to be clear, when the device was returned to the original spot used when tuning (the bass/tenor break strut), in every case the reading returned to exactly what it was originally. No issues there.  Only the notes showing a change are shown below. Otherwise there was no difference (28 notes total)

Note   Change (cents)

C#3     +.5

D#3      -.3

E3         -.3

A3        +.2

B3        +.6~.7

D#4      -.4

F#4      -.6

G#4      +.5

So, a little better than 25% showed any change worth noting. You can draw your own conclusions. And, I'm perfectly fine with "nothing here". 

My next one will be with Tunelab soon. (I'll be restringing the piano so teardown soon). 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter, a video would be helpful. As you say, the readings tend to twitch. It would be good to see the range in that context rather than static numbers.

Thanks for the effort in this.

Nathan,

I did PianoMeter yesterday afternoon and the results were interesting. I was a little more meticulous this time and actually wrote down my findings (although that is out in the shop and I'm sitting in the house sipping coffee ☕️ at the moment) . Here is what happened: 

I retuned the same center section using PM. The first point of interest to me was that PM's interpretation of ET on this piano was measurably better than PT. Anomalies that showed up in PT (and needed manual correction) were very nicely redistributed to create a virtually ideal progression of all intervals. AND, with far less time involved with measuring IH (I like that!) Kudos to Anthony on this. 

Then I started my alternating between struts exactly as with PT. Of course, both apps "wiggle" on their indicators requiring some interpretation so I've tried to be as fair as I can be in this regard. What I found with PM was that, although MORE anomalies seemed to appear (I admit I did not write down the PT findings), the DEGREE of fluctuation was significantly less, with the biggest discrepancies at no more than .7 cents. Most were in the .2 - .4 cent range (which is pretty tolerable). 

I can go back and redo the test with PT and actually record the findings (not too big of a deal) or you can just take my word for it. The notables (pun intended) on that one were obviously well over one cent. 

No bass or treble areas were tested in this...just the middle. The purpose is simply to demonstrate that there IS a degree of error (again...to be fair, very much as with the human ear). 

My experience with the PS sensor has demonstrated significant improvement in PM needle indicator stability (improving accuracy) and NO fluctuation resulting from device location movement (for obvious reasons). PT has not been quite as responsive in this regard, but does show improvement. 

I will follow this up with the actual data I recorded later today. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2025 21:26
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 11/1/2025 1:23:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Ron, you wrote the following: 

"The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display".

My response is that (and I know some will argue this till the cows come home) the primary problem is the microphone. The microphone works just the ear, in that, it is position-dependent for serious accuracy. Now, while things are "better" than they were back in the '90's when I started testing this out, it still remains that if you move the device it MAY read the same note differently than in its original recording position. I just proved it again yesterday afternoon in the shop (just to see if I could be proven wrong for which I would not be writing this post):

Using Piatune (currently my favorite for at least one reason) I tuned the entire center section of a KG-2 (center stings only), making absolutely sure that my tuning stability could not be accused of fooling me by going over it and over it, checking with the ETD (which remained in one place only). Then, I started moving the ETD around (basically back and forth between bass/tenor strut (original) and first treble strut. At first I was quite impressed (thinking maybe I'm wrong), but then it started on one note, the difference being roughly 1.5 cents from one position to the other (BTW its an iphone). I said "uh-oh"...and moved it repeatedly back and forth from OP to NP and the difference was consistent. OP read as tuned, NP read flat by 1-1.5 cents. The majority were pretty consistent, however there were at least three notes (for the time I had available) in the section that deviated up to about 1.5 cents when the device was moved. 

Admittedly this is a better record than what I've experienced before (could also be the iPhone), and very small position changes did not bring about significant reading changes. This was ONLY in the center section on the center strings. 

"So what's the big deal?" some will ask. In the day to day world of normal tuning its NOT a big deal (obviously). But in a "not-so-normal" situation such as an examination, it COULD become a big deal. And if one was trying to recreate a carefully constructed concert tuning in a noisy environment, it MIGHT become a big deal. It was a deal-breaker for me back when I started messing with it (of course not knowing the inherent problem and assuming it was the "cat's meow" of accuracy, which it proved not to be). 

Okay, I've ranted long enough. I WILL repeat the experiment with Tunelab and PianoMeter (both on my Android phone) and report my findings. If anyone thinks I'm "cooking the books" to justify my viewpoint I'm willing to make detailed records (including a video) to prove it. 

It is an issue for me. I know it is NOT an issue for many. I accept that...but I do know that the PS sensor almost completely solves the problem.  Feel free to ignore me. 😌 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 18:45
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Moving the Pianosens is not an issue.  Inserting a mute takes longer.  Dealing with the wire and setting it up takes some time, maybe a minute or two. 

It will also work if you put it on the plate, but has a much more reliable and stronger signal if it's over the string(s).  I have tuned spinets putting it on the pressure bar, especially where there's no room in the treble because of the dampers.  It does help tuning spinets and consoles where the mic seems to pick up other vibrations in the treble from undampened strings.  I usually put it down below the hammer line past the dampers.  Bit of a do, but it works.  False beats- it won't cure them, use your ears.

Also, there are two poles side by side inside the unit.  If you put the end of the sensor (where one pole is underneath) directly over the string you're tuning, it gives a stronger and steadier reading in Pianoscope.  It does have a magnet on the bottom which holds it in place, but the magnet doesn't affect the sensor unless you place the magnet on the string you're tuning (and you wouldn't put it there).

Just a few observations..

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 15:32
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

While the an over the string magnetic sensor will probably give the strongest signal, the downside is that they are labor intensive. In addition to the 88 hand movements to position them from note to note, there are 2 additional movements whenever you use them to go back and make checks for drift etc.and they are bigger movements over intervals and octaves. This is a disincentive to making a lot of checks and could rub up against time constraints in the situation Alan was in. Mics or the less sensitive piezo pickups, require little or no extra placement issues.

Don Gilmore, inventor of the self-tuning piano, uses infrared sensors to read the frequencies of the strings and induction to control the temperature of the strings, lots of hardware. After over 20 years, still a work in progress. https://www.youtube.com/@dongilmore8681

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 13:10
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 10/31/2025 9:21:00 AM
From: Ron Koval
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

the magnetic pickup is perhaps the ideal tool for Alan's original problem - how to feed clear signals to an ETD in very noisy situations. 

The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display. 

I recently saw something about optical guitar pickups (very expensive) that looked like an interesting technology.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

IMO, the Pianosens sensor is one of those underappreciated technologies that has the potential to revolutionize certain things. In this case it is solving an unadmitted problem (for obvious reasons) of accuracy and repeatability. But as is fairly typical, resistance to it is not because it doesn't work, but rather it is perceived as a threat. 

It was a similar situation back in the days  when the "Doc" was developing the SOT and then the SAT. Al was astute enough to recognize this and kept at it patiently, and (as they say) the rest is history. However, he KNEW there was an inherent weakness in the ETD world (the microphone) but was unable at the time to truly solve it with the tech of the time. A select few of similarly astute techs have recognized the value of this current tech and what it's potential is. And it is likely to get even better in time...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 00:20
From: Randall Woltz
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

If anyone out there would like to try the PianoSens, I'll be happy to loan it out and you can see for yourself. Let me know.

Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 10/30/2025 9:58:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-30-2025 12:40
From: Matthew Walworth
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Larry,

True...not simply by listening to it alone. However, aural/analog tests show it up glaringly. 

Please remember though, we're not talking about reading a note that has moved. We're talking about notes that have NOT moved but are being read differently...a completely different animal. 

Does this REALLY matter in the real world of day to day tuning?  I don't think so...but that's not the point. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter. Could your ear tell that the B3. D#4 was a cent wider when your ear was moved!

So, here's the promised data (sorry no video as yet)...

Just to be clear, when the device was returned to the original spot used when tuning (the bass/tenor break strut), in every case the reading returned to exactly what it was originally. No issues there.  Only the notes showing a change are shown below. Otherwise there was no difference (28 notes total)

Note   Change (cents)

C#3     +.5

D#3      -.3

E3         -.3

A3        +.2

B3        +.6~.7

D#4      -.4

F#4      -.6

G#4      +.5

So, a little better than 25% showed any change worth noting. You can draw your own conclusions. And, I'm perfectly fine with "nothing here". 

My next one will be with Tunelab soon. (I'll be restringing the piano so teardown soon). 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter, a video would be helpful. As you say, the readings tend to twitch. It would be good to see the range in that context rather than static numbers.

Thanks for the effort in this.

Nathan,

I did PianoMeter yesterday afternoon and the results were interesting. I was a little more meticulous this time and actually wrote down my findings (although that is out in the shop and I'm sitting in the house sipping coffee ☕️ at the moment) . Here is what happened: 

I retuned the same center section using PM. The first point of interest to me was that PM's interpretation of ET on this piano was measurably better than PT. Anomalies that showed up in PT (and needed manual correction) were very nicely redistributed to create a virtually ideal progression of all intervals. AND, with far less time involved with measuring IH (I like that!) Kudos to Anthony on this. 

Then I started my alternating between struts exactly as with PT. Of course, both apps "wiggle" on their indicators requiring some interpretation so I've tried to be as fair as I can be in this regard. What I found with PM was that, although MORE anomalies seemed to appear (I admit I did not write down the PT findings), the DEGREE of fluctuation was significantly less, with the biggest discrepancies at no more than .7 cents. Most were in the .2 - .4 cent range (which is pretty tolerable). 

I can go back and redo the test with PT and actually record the findings (not too big of a deal) or you can just take my word for it. The notables (pun intended) on that one were obviously well over one cent. 

No bass or treble areas were tested in this...just the middle. The purpose is simply to demonstrate that there IS a degree of error (again...to be fair, very much as with the human ear). 

My experience with the PS sensor has demonstrated significant improvement in PM needle indicator stability (improving accuracy) and NO fluctuation resulting from device location movement (for obvious reasons). PT has not been quite as responsive in this regard, but does show improvement. 

I will follow this up with the actual data I recorded later today. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2025 21:26
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 11/1/2025 1:23:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Ron, you wrote the following: 

"The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display".

My response is that (and I know some will argue this till the cows come home) the primary problem is the microphone. The microphone works just the ear, in that, it is position-dependent for serious accuracy. Now, while things are "better" than they were back in the '90's when I started testing this out, it still remains that if you move the device it MAY read the same note differently than in its original recording position. I just proved it again yesterday afternoon in the shop (just to see if I could be proven wrong for which I would not be writing this post):

Using Piatune (currently my favorite for at least one reason) I tuned the entire center section of a KG-2 (center stings only), making absolutely sure that my tuning stability could not be accused of fooling me by going over it and over it, checking with the ETD (which remained in one place only). Then, I started moving the ETD around (basically back and forth between bass/tenor strut (original) and first treble strut. At first I was quite impressed (thinking maybe I'm wrong), but then it started on one note, the difference being roughly 1.5 cents from one position to the other (BTW its an iphone). I said "uh-oh"...and moved it repeatedly back and forth from OP to NP and the difference was consistent. OP read as tuned, NP read flat by 1-1.5 cents. The majority were pretty consistent, however there were at least three notes (for the time I had available) in the section that deviated up to about 1.5 cents when the device was moved. 

Admittedly this is a better record than what I've experienced before (could also be the iPhone), and very small position changes did not bring about significant reading changes. This was ONLY in the center section on the center strings. 

"So what's the big deal?" some will ask. In the day to day world of normal tuning its NOT a big deal (obviously). But in a "not-so-normal" situation such as an examination, it COULD become a big deal. And if one was trying to recreate a carefully constructed concert tuning in a noisy environment, it MIGHT become a big deal. It was a deal-breaker for me back when I started messing with it (of course not knowing the inherent problem and assuming it was the "cat's meow" of accuracy, which it proved not to be). 

Okay, I've ranted long enough. I WILL repeat the experiment with Tunelab and PianoMeter (both on my Android phone) and report my findings. If anyone thinks I'm "cooking the books" to justify my viewpoint I'm willing to make detailed records (including a video) to prove it. 

It is an issue for me. I know it is NOT an issue for many. I accept that...but I do know that the PS sensor almost completely solves the problem.  Feel free to ignore me. 😌 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 18:45
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Moving the Pianosens is not an issue.  Inserting a mute takes longer.  Dealing with the wire and setting it up takes some time, maybe a minute or two. 

It will also work if you put it on the plate, but has a much more reliable and stronger signal if it's over the string(s).  I have tuned spinets putting it on the pressure bar, especially where there's no room in the treble because of the dampers.  It does help tuning spinets and consoles where the mic seems to pick up other vibrations in the treble from undampened strings.  I usually put it down below the hammer line past the dampers.  Bit of a do, but it works.  False beats- it won't cure them, use your ears.

Also, there are two poles side by side inside the unit.  If you put the end of the sensor (where one pole is underneath) directly over the string you're tuning, it gives a stronger and steadier reading in Pianoscope.  It does have a magnet on the bottom which holds it in place, but the magnet doesn't affect the sensor unless you place the magnet on the string you're tuning (and you wouldn't put it there).

Just a few observations..

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 15:32
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

While the an over the string magnetic sensor will probably give the strongest signal, the downside is that they are labor intensive. In addition to the 88 hand movements to position them from note to note, there are 2 additional movements whenever you use them to go back and make checks for drift etc.and they are bigger movements over intervals and octaves. This is a disincentive to making a lot of checks and could rub up against time constraints in the situation Alan was in. Mics or the less sensitive piezo pickups, require little or no extra placement issues.

Don Gilmore, inventor of the self-tuning piano, uses infrared sensors to read the frequencies of the strings and induction to control the temperature of the strings, lots of hardware. After over 20 years, still a work in progress. https://www.youtube.com/@dongilmore8681

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 13:10
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 10/31/2025 9:21:00 AM
From: Ron Koval
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

the magnetic pickup is perhaps the ideal tool for Alan's original problem - how to feed clear signals to an ETD in very noisy situations. 

The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display. 

I recently saw something about optical guitar pickups (very expensive) that looked like an interesting technology.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

IMO, the Pianosens sensor is one of those underappreciated technologies that has the potential to revolutionize certain things. In this case it is solving an unadmitted problem (for obvious reasons) of accuracy and repeatability. But as is fairly typical, resistance to it is not because it doesn't work, but rather it is perceived as a threat. 

It was a similar situation back in the days  when the "Doc" was developing the SOT and then the SAT. Al was astute enough to recognize this and kept at it patiently, and (as they say) the rest is history. However, he KNEW there was an inherent weakness in the ETD world (the microphone) but was unable at the time to truly solve it with the tech of the time. A select few of similarly astute techs have recognized the value of this current tech and what it's potential is. And it is likely to get even better in time...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 00:20
From: Randall Woltz
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

If anyone out there would like to try the PianoSens, I'll be happy to loan it out and you can see for yourself. Let me know.

Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 10/30/2025 9:58:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

My money's on the Pianosens sensor. Its a lab grade piece. Al Sanderson would be all over it. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-30-2025 12:40
From: Matthew Walworth
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

The Sanderson accu-tuner has a magnetic pickup exactly for this.  I use it for live events when I can't even hear the piano at all.  This also means you are stuck with the machine curve, so there wont be any fine tuning. But typically won't matter anyway for most events.  It will allow you to have clean unisons, but you will have to tune each string to the machine individually.  Works like magic!  You have to move the pickup around as you move up the piano to find the sweet spot for the pickup to get the strongest signal.  Some string frames on older pianos have really uneven or rough surface,  which won't allow enough contact to pickup a strong enough signal through the cast iron.

------------------------------
Matthew Walworth
A.M.O. Pianos
Lebanon, TN 37087

Original Message:
Sent: 10-29-2025 18:46
From: Alan Eder
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Greetings,

I have had to do important tunings under (um, shall we say) less than ideal circumstances on more occasions than I care to count. One of the worst situations happened this past weekend, while tuning for a music festival in which the headliners all had drum sets and electric guitars, basses and keyboards.

I will spare you the gory details of circumstances that conspired to compel me tune onstage, DURING soundchecks, with the pianos located in the direct line of fire of massive side-fill stage monitors. This was, hands down, THE most challenging situation in which I have ever had to tune. And for well-known artists, no less.

My Electronic Tuning Device certainly helped. But it was often challenged to "hear" the piano through the din, as was I when aurally verifying octaves and while tuning unisons. (I am firmly in the camp of preferring to tune unisons by ear.)

Looking back, I think I might have been able to cover more territory in the very limited time available if I had a magnetic pickup attached to the cast iron string frame (AKA "plate") to send the signal directly to my device one string at a time for measurement and tuning.

So, for those of you with experience using magnetic pickups in conjunction with your ETD, a few questions:

1)        What pickup have you used?

2)        What kind of device are you using?

3)        Which app do you use?

Also, any other advice that I am not astute enough ask about would also be most welcome.

I currently use CyberTuner run on an iPod, and also have Sanderson Accu-Tuner (which, for those not familiar with it, is integrated software and hardware).

Thanks,

Alan

------------------------------
Alan Eder, RPT
Herb Alpert School of Music
California Institute of the Arts
Valencia, CA
661.904.6483
------------------------------

Larry,

True...not simply by listening to it alone. However, aural/analog tests show it up glaringly. 

Please remember though, we're not talking about reading a note that has moved. We're talking about notes that have NOT moved but are being read differently...a completely different animal. 

Does this REALLY matter in the real world of day to day tuning?  I don't think so...but that's not the point. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter. Could your ear tell that the B3. D#4 was a cent wider when your ear was moved!

So, here's the promised data (sorry no video as yet)...

Just to be clear, when the device was returned to the original spot used when tuning (the bass/tenor break strut), in every case the reading returned to exactly what it was originally. No issues there.  Only the notes showing a change are shown below. Otherwise there was no difference (28 notes total)

Note   Change (cents)

C#3     +.5

D#3      -.3

E3         -.3

A3        +.2

B3        +.6~.7

D#4      -.4

F#4      -.6

G#4      +.5

So, a little better than 25% showed any change worth noting. You can draw your own conclusions. And, I'm perfectly fine with "nothing here". 

My next one will be with Tunelab soon. (I'll be restringing the piano so teardown soon). 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

Peter, a video would be helpful. As you say, the readings tend to twitch. It would be good to see the range in that context rather than static numbers.

Thanks for the effort in this.

Nathan,

I did PianoMeter yesterday afternoon and the results were interesting. I was a little more meticulous this time and actually wrote down my findings (although that is out in the shop and I'm sitting in the house sipping coffee ☕️ at the moment) . Here is what happened: 

I retuned the same center section using PM. The first point of interest to me was that PM's interpretation of ET on this piano was measurably better than PT. Anomalies that showed up in PT (and needed manual correction) were very nicely redistributed to create a virtually ideal progression of all intervals. AND, with far less time involved with measuring IH (I like that!) Kudos to Anthony on this. 

Then I started my alternating between struts exactly as with PT. Of course, both apps "wiggle" on their indicators requiring some interpretation so I've tried to be as fair as I can be in this regard. What I found with PM was that, although MORE anomalies seemed to appear (I admit I did not write down the PT findings), the DEGREE of fluctuation was significantly less, with the biggest discrepancies at no more than .7 cents. Most were in the .2 - .4 cent range (which is pretty tolerable). 

I can go back and redo the test with PT and actually record the findings (not too big of a deal) or you can just take my word for it. The notables (pun intended) on that one were obviously well over one cent. 

No bass or treble areas were tested in this...just the middle. The purpose is simply to demonstrate that there IS a degree of error (again...to be fair, very much as with the human ear). 

My experience with the PS sensor has demonstrated significant improvement in PM needle indicator stability (improving accuracy) and NO fluctuation resulting from device location movement (for obvious reasons). PT has not been quite as responsive in this regard, but does show improvement. 

I will follow this up with the actual data I recorded later today. 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 11-02-2025 21:26
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 11/1/2025 1:23:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Ron, you wrote the following: 

"The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display".

My response is that (and I know some will argue this till the cows come home) the primary problem is the microphone. The microphone works just the ear, in that, it is position-dependent for serious accuracy. Now, while things are "better" than they were back in the '90's when I started testing this out, it still remains that if you move the device it MAY read the same note differently than in its original recording position. I just proved it again yesterday afternoon in the shop (just to see if I could be proven wrong for which I would not be writing this post):

Using Piatune (currently my favorite for at least one reason) I tuned the entire center section of a KG-2 (center stings only), making absolutely sure that my tuning stability could not be accused of fooling me by going over it and over it, checking with the ETD (which remained in one place only). Then, I started moving the ETD around (basically back and forth between bass/tenor strut (original) and first treble strut. At first I was quite impressed (thinking maybe I'm wrong), but then it started on one note, the difference being roughly 1.5 cents from one position to the other (BTW its an iphone). I said "uh-oh"...and moved it repeatedly back and forth from OP to NP and the difference was consistent. OP read as tuned, NP read flat by 1-1.5 cents. The majority were pretty consistent, however there were at least three notes (for the time I had available) in the section that deviated up to about 1.5 cents when the device was moved. 

Admittedly this is a better record than what I've experienced before (could also be the iPhone), and very small position changes did not bring about significant reading changes. This was ONLY in the center section on the center strings. 

"So what's the big deal?" some will ask. In the day to day world of normal tuning its NOT a big deal (obviously). But in a "not-so-normal" situation such as an examination, it COULD become a big deal. And if one was trying to recreate a carefully constructed concert tuning in a noisy environment, it MIGHT become a big deal. It was a deal-breaker for me back when I started messing with it (of course not knowing the inherent problem and assuming it was the "cat's meow" of accuracy, which it proved not to be). 

Okay, I've ranted long enough. I WILL repeat the experiment with Tunelab and PianoMeter (both on my Android phone) and report my findings. If anyone thinks I'm "cooking the books" to justify my viewpoint I'm willing to make detailed records (including a video) to prove it. 

It is an issue for me. I know it is NOT an issue for many. I accept that...but I do know that the PS sensor almost completely solves the problem.  Feel free to ignore me. 😌 

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 18:45
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Moving the Pianosens is not an issue.  Inserting a mute takes longer.  Dealing with the wire and setting it up takes some time, maybe a minute or two. 

It will also work if you put it on the plate, but has a much more reliable and stronger signal if it's over the string(s).  I have tuned spinets putting it on the pressure bar, especially where there's no room in the treble because of the dampers.  It does help tuning spinets and consoles where the mic seems to pick up other vibrations in the treble from undampened strings.  I usually put it down below the hammer line past the dampers.  Bit of a do, but it works.  False beats- it won't cure them, use your ears.

Also, there are two poles side by side inside the unit.  If you put the end of the sensor (where one pole is underneath) directly over the string you're tuning, it gives a stronger and steadier reading in Pianoscope.  It does have a magnet on the bottom which holds it in place, but the magnet doesn't affect the sensor unless you place the magnet on the string you're tuning (and you wouldn't put it there).

Just a few observations..

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 15:32
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

While the an over the string magnetic sensor will probably give the strongest signal, the downside is that they are labor intensive. In addition to the 88 hand movements to position them from note to note, there are 2 additional movements whenever you use them to go back and make checks for drift etc.and they are bigger movements over intervals and octaves. This is a disincentive to making a lot of checks and could rub up against time constraints in the situation Alan was in. Mics or the less sensitive piezo pickups, require little or no extra placement issues.

Don Gilmore, inventor of the self-tuning piano, uses infrared sensors to read the frequencies of the strings and induction to control the temperature of the strings, lots of hardware. After over 20 years, still a work in progress. https://www.youtube.com/@dongilmore8681

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 13:10
From: Nathan Monteleone
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 10/31/2025 9:21:00 AM
From: Ron Koval
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

the magnetic pickup is perhaps the ideal tool for Alan's original problem - how to feed clear signals to an ETD in very noisy situations. 

The other claims about accuracy and repeatability are still contested by side-by-side tests using saved files on multiple platforms where there was no visual differences seen at the display. 

I recently saw something about optical guitar pickups (very expensive) that looked like an interesting technology.

Ron Koval

------------------------------
Ron Koval
CHICAGO IL

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 08:02
From: Peter Grey
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

IMO, the Pianosens sensor is one of those underappreciated technologies that has the potential to revolutionize certain things. In this case it is solving an unadmitted problem (for obvious reasons) of accuracy and repeatability. But as is fairly typical, resistance to it is not because it doesn't work, but rather it is perceived as a threat. 

It was a similar situation back in the days  when the "Doc" was developing the SOT and then the SAT. Al was astute enough to recognize this and kept at it patiently, and (as they say) the rest is history. However, he KNEW there was an inherent weakness in the ETD world (the microphone) but was unable at the time to truly solve it with the tech of the time. A select few of similarly astute techs have recognized the value of this current tech and what it's potential is. And it is likely to get even better in time...

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

------------------------------
Peter Grey
Stratham NH
(603) 686-2395
pianodoctor57@gmail.com

Original Message:
Sent: 10-31-2025 00:20
From: Randall Woltz
Subject: magnetic pickups for piano tuning

If anyone out there would like to try the PianoSens, I'll be happy to loan it out and you can see for yourself. Let me know.

Sent from my iPhone


Original Message:
Sent: 10/30/2025 9:58:00 PM
From: Peter Grey
Subject: RE: magnetic pickups for piano tuning