Pianotech

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. From what I've learned from period instrument guys in LA, "Historical temperaments" on harpsichord were typically tuned by musicians for a reason. If something like 1/4 meantone was used, they knew which notes were sharp and which were flat based on the key signature of the music. If they moved out of meantone to different tunings it was a way of consolidating differences and being more practical, but they always understood what they were doing.

If the music calls for a specific tuning like "Sonatra" and the pianist is surprised by how the piano sounds that is one thing. If you decide to play a baroque piece in E major in meantone and you ask the technician to tune G# instead of Ab that is another. I don't understand the idea of being a "musician" who is simply pushing buttons on a keyboard without any understanding of why they are different because a "technician" moved the pitches without basing it off of the actual key signature of the piece when the composer most likely had equal temperament in mind. (For example, you played Berg in unequal temperament one time and his music is conceptually based in 12 tone equal temperament.)

There is plenty of music written for equal temperament that needs to be in that temperament, there are people trying to be historical practitioners, and there is music that is written for new tuning systems. I don't mean to be too harsh but I consider what you are talking about to be a compositional practice based on your tuning lever and computer and not really related to global questions like "can musicians and technicians reconnect".

P.S. Have you considered taking more time to put together your research and writing some kind of thesis? I don't know how productive these posts are without a clear organization of your point.

In publishing continuing experiments a significant disconnect has become apparent between musicians and technicians.

Whilst formerly tuning nearly always with a twisted Kellner temperament, which was audible without being offensive, I'd been wary of using the stronger Kirnberger III tuning but following a test in Italy comparing a Steinway tuned to Kellner and a Bechstein to Kirnberger III there was a strong disparity of comments from the two camps, musicians liking the Bechstein and technicians saying how horrible it sounded - and in relation to that instrument, it's admittedly not the best. 

Yesterday I tuned a baby Pleyel for a student I've known in relation to an international competition which I tune for. After reviewing recordings of recent concerts we decided to give the strong tuning a go.

Testing unequal temperament tuning of Pleyel baby grand piano

was the result. Look at his smile!

With the chromatic tests to which he put the instrument there was a sort of cogging effect where the music locks into harmony and then releases and slips. This was a similar experience to a test by the Director of a conservatoire for whom I tuned recently playing one of the Bach preludes. This cogging effect is allied to the movement of dance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH_uGblpEe0

and our piano world really is related to other forms of musical arts, singing and dancing, but from which the mainstream piano world is disengaged.

As the Pleyel tuning which would certainly fail a PTG exam but which could evince such a smile, is it relevant to ask if the professional piano world has gone up a blind alley for the past century? Is it time to rethink?

The tuning isn't just for the Baroque. Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey

It makes music

Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey - 

here with Giovanni Bottesini Romanza Patetica

A major inspiration for this rhetorical question was some comments by an app addict on one of my videos recently accusing me of forms of ignorance, which are accepted, and commented "listening to this performance and disregarding completely the strange effect a historical temperament may have to our modern ears with smaller intervals, I find the octaves not qui in tune on the piano in the middle-low range and it is no surprise to me that a generic tuning was used". This technician was out of touch with how music properly sounded like and as we hear, for instance, on old French organs 

Bach Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at St Maximin

and for whom perfect octaves are golden whereas I might be aiming for something else. He was also blind to the quality of playing which the tuning influenced with a harpsichordist playing the piano as a harpsichordist exploiting the piano rather than a pianist trying to play the piano as a harpsichord.

Whilst there are many run-o-the-mill, there are increasing numbers of musicians who are becoming more discerning and who require their piano to serve their needs and which the conventional industry is more likely than not and especially getting appropriately tuned instruments onto the concert stage.

Can technicians and musicians who appreciate the wider genres reconnect?

Best wishes

David P

Original Message:
Sent: 8/12/2024 9:18:00 AM
From: Jesse Reyes
Subject: RE: Musician Technician Disconnect

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. From what I've learned from period instrument guys in LA, "Historical temperaments" on harpsichord were typically tuned by musicians for a reason. If something like 1/4 meantone was used, they knew which notes were sharp and which were flat based on the key signature of the music. If they moved out of meantone to different tunings it was a way of consolidating differences and being more practical, but they always understood what they were doing.

If the music calls for a specific tuning like "Sonatra" and the pianist is surprised by how the piano sounds that is one thing. If you decide to play a baroque piece in E major in meantone and you ask the technician to tune G# instead of Ab that is another. I don't understand the idea of being a "musician" who is simply pushing buttons on a keyboard without any understanding of why they are different because a "technician" moved the pitches without basing it off of the actual key signature of the piece when the composer most likely had equal temperament in mind. (For example, you played Berg in unequal temperament one time and his music is conceptually based in 12 tone equal temperament.)

There is plenty of music written for equal temperament that needs to be in that temperament, there are people trying to be historical practitioners, and there is music that is written for new tuning systems. I don't mean to be too harsh but I consider what you are talking about to be a compositional practice based on your tuning lever and computer and not really related to global questions like "can musicians and technicians reconnect".

P.S. Have you considered taking more time to put together your research and writing some kind of thesis? I don't know how productive these posts are without a clear organization of your point.

------------------------------
Jesse Reyes
Los Angeles CA
(310) 704-7636

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 06:28
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Musician Technician Disconnect

In publishing continuing experiments a significant disconnect has become apparent between musicians and technicians.

Whilst formerly tuning nearly always with a twisted Kellner temperament, which was audible without being offensive, I'd been wary of using the stronger Kirnberger III tuning but following a test in Italy comparing a Steinway tuned to Kellner and a Bechstein to Kirnberger III there was a strong disparity of comments from the two camps, musicians liking the Bechstein and technicians saying how horrible it sounded - and in relation to that instrument, it's admittedly not the best. 

Yesterday I tuned a baby Pleyel for a student I've known in relation to an international competition which I tune for. After reviewing recordings of recent concerts we decided to give the strong tuning a go.

Testing unequal temperament tuning of Pleyel baby grand piano

was the result. Look at his smile!

With the chromatic tests to which he put the instrument there was a sort of cogging effect where the music locks into harmony and then releases and slips. This was a similar experience to a test by the Director of a conservatoire for whom I tuned recently playing one of the Bach preludes. This cogging effect is allied to the movement of dance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH_uGblpEe0

and our piano world really is related to other forms of musical arts, singing and dancing, but from which the mainstream piano world is disengaged.

As the Pleyel tuning which would certainly fail a PTG exam but which could evince such a smile, is it relevant to ask if the professional piano world has gone up a blind alley for the past century? Is it time to rethink?

The tuning isn't just for the Baroque. Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey

It makes music

Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey - 

here with Giovanni Bottesini Romanza Patetica

A major inspiration for this rhetorical question was some comments by an app addict on one of my videos recently accusing me of forms of ignorance, which are accepted, and commented "listening to this performance and disregarding completely the strange effect a historical temperament may have to our modern ears with smaller intervals, I find the octaves not qui in tune on the piano in the middle-low range and it is no surprise to me that a generic tuning was used". This technician was out of touch with how music properly sounded like and as we hear, for instance, on old French organs 

Bach Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at St Maximin

and for whom perfect octaves are golden whereas I might be aiming for something else. He was also blind to the quality of playing which the tuning influenced with a harpsichordist playing the piano as a harpsichordist exploiting the piano rather than a pianist trying to play the piano as a harpsichord.

Whilst there are many run-o-the-mill, there are increasing numbers of musicians who are becoming more discerning and who require their piano to serve their needs and which the conventional industry is more likely than not and especially getting appropriately tuned instruments onto the concert stage.

Can technicians and musicians who appreciate the wider genres reconnect?

Best wishes

David P

------------------------------
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
+44 1342 850594
"High Definition" Tuning
------------------------------

Fred Strum wrote a scholarly article on the history of temperament. I believe it is a 'must read' for anyone who wants to speak authoritatively on this subject. His article is very clear, comprehensive, exhaustive. 

Fred's article can be found at: 

https://www.artoftuning.com/tuning_history

A Clear and Practical Introduction to Temperament History

Part 1: Introduction

By Fred Sturm

Published in the Piano Technicians Journal, May, 2010

What I find most interesting in Fred's thesis is that Bach clearly intended that keys have no bias (no color compared to other keys). CPE Bach confirmed that. A good example of that would be the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, which I am very familiar with. Tuning that piece with unequal temperament makes absolutely no musical sense, I would say, nonsense!

I also found that Fred more or less proves that by the early-mid 19th century, tuning was 'equal temperament' generally. 

As a professional musician, I find Fred's conclusions above in line with my own musical instincts. I find that the current advocates of unequal temperament have no standing in the 21st century unless they want to tune a period piano to some particular early piece that is dominant in C, F, or G. Otherwise it again makes no sense. 

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. From what I've learned from period instrument guys in LA, "Historical temperaments" on harpsichord were typically tuned by musicians for a reason. If something like 1/4 meantone was used, they knew which notes were sharp and which were flat based on the key signature of the music. If they moved out of meantone to different tunings it was a way of consolidating differences and being more practical, but they always understood what they were doing.

If the music calls for a specific tuning like "Sonatra" and the pianist is surprised by how the piano sounds that is one thing. If you decide to play a baroque piece in E major in meantone and you ask the technician to tune G# instead of Ab that is another. I don't understand the idea of being a "musician" who is simply pushing buttons on a keyboard without any understanding of why they are different because a "technician" moved the pitches without basing it off of the actual key signature of the piece when the composer most likely had equal temperament in mind. (For example, you played Berg in unequal temperament one time and his music is conceptually based in 12 tone equal temperament.)

There is plenty of music written for equal temperament that needs to be in that temperament, there are people trying to be historical practitioners, and there is music that is written for new tuning systems. I don't mean to be too harsh but I consider what you are talking about to be a compositional practice based on your tuning lever and computer and not really related to global questions like "can musicians and technicians reconnect".

P.S. Have you considered taking more time to put together your research and writing some kind of thesis? I don't know how productive these posts are without a clear organization of your point.

In publishing continuing experiments a significant disconnect has become apparent between musicians and technicians.

Whilst formerly tuning nearly always with a twisted Kellner temperament, which was audible without being offensive, I'd been wary of using the stronger Kirnberger III tuning but following a test in Italy comparing a Steinway tuned to Kellner and a Bechstein to Kirnberger III there was a strong disparity of comments from the two camps, musicians liking the Bechstein and technicians saying how horrible it sounded - and in relation to that instrument, it's admittedly not the best. 

Yesterday I tuned a baby Pleyel for a student I've known in relation to an international competition which I tune for. After reviewing recordings of recent concerts we decided to give the strong tuning a go.

Testing unequal temperament tuning of Pleyel baby grand piano

was the result. Look at his smile!

With the chromatic tests to which he put the instrument there was a sort of cogging effect where the music locks into harmony and then releases and slips. This was a similar experience to a test by the Director of a conservatoire for whom I tuned recently playing one of the Bach preludes. This cogging effect is allied to the movement of dance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH_uGblpEe0

and our piano world really is related to other forms of musical arts, singing and dancing, but from which the mainstream piano world is disengaged.

As the Pleyel tuning which would certainly fail a PTG exam but which could evince such a smile, is it relevant to ask if the professional piano world has gone up a blind alley for the past century? Is it time to rethink?

The tuning isn't just for the Baroque. Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey

It makes music

Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey - 

here with Giovanni Bottesini Romanza Patetica

A major inspiration for this rhetorical question was some comments by an app addict on one of my videos recently accusing me of forms of ignorance, which are accepted, and commented "listening to this performance and disregarding completely the strange effect a historical temperament may have to our modern ears with smaller intervals, I find the octaves not qui in tune on the piano in the middle-low range and it is no surprise to me that a generic tuning was used". This technician was out of touch with how music properly sounded like and as we hear, for instance, on old French organs 

Bach Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at St Maximin

and for whom perfect octaves are golden whereas I might be aiming for something else. He was also blind to the quality of playing which the tuning influenced with a harpsichordist playing the piano as a harpsichordist exploiting the piano rather than a pianist trying to play the piano as a harpsichord.

Whilst there are many run-o-the-mill, there are increasing numbers of musicians who are becoming more discerning and who require their piano to serve their needs and which the conventional industry is more likely than not and especially getting appropriately tuned instruments onto the concert stage.

Can technicians and musicians who appreciate the wider genres reconnect?

Best wishes

David P

Fred Strum wrote a scholarly article on the history of temperament. I believe it is a 'must read' for anyone who wants to speak authoritatively on this subject. His article is very clear, comprehensive, exhaustive. 

Fred's article can be found at: 

https://www.artoftuning.com/tuning_history

A Clear and Practical Introduction to Temperament History

Part 1: Introduction

By Fred Sturm

Published in the Piano Technicians Journal, May, 2010

What I find most interesting in Fred's thesis is that Bach clearly intended that keys have no bias (no color compared to other keys). CPE Bach confirmed that. A good example of that would be the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, which I am very familiar with. Tuning that piece with unequal temperament makes absolutely no musical sense, I would say, nonsense!

I also found that Fred more or less proves that by the early-mid 19th century, tuning was 'equal temperament' generally. 

As a professional musician, I find Fred's conclusions above in line with my own musical instincts. I find that the current advocates of unequal temperament have no standing in the 21st century unless they want to tune a period piano to some particular early piece that is dominant in C, F, or G. Otherwise it again makes no sense. 

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. From what I've learned from period instrument guys in LA, "Historical temperaments" on harpsichord were typically tuned by musicians for a reason. If something like 1/4 meantone was used, they knew which notes were sharp and which were flat based on the key signature of the music. If they moved out of meantone to different tunings it was a way of consolidating differences and being more practical, but they always understood what they were doing.

If the music calls for a specific tuning like "Sonatra" and the pianist is surprised by how the piano sounds that is one thing. If you decide to play a baroque piece in E major in meantone and you ask the technician to tune G# instead of Ab that is another. I don't understand the idea of being a "musician" who is simply pushing buttons on a keyboard without any understanding of why they are different because a "technician" moved the pitches without basing it off of the actual key signature of the piece when the composer most likely had equal temperament in mind. (For example, you played Berg in unequal temperament one time and his music is conceptually based in 12 tone equal temperament.)

There is plenty of music written for equal temperament that needs to be in that temperament, there are people trying to be historical practitioners, and there is music that is written for new tuning systems. I don't mean to be too harsh but I consider what you are talking about to be a compositional practice based on your tuning lever and computer and not really related to global questions like "can musicians and technicians reconnect".

P.S. Have you considered taking more time to put together your research and writing some kind of thesis? I don't know how productive these posts are without a clear organization of your point.

In publishing continuing experiments a significant disconnect has become apparent between musicians and technicians.

Whilst formerly tuning nearly always with a twisted Kellner temperament, which was audible without being offensive, I'd been wary of using the stronger Kirnberger III tuning but following a test in Italy comparing a Steinway tuned to Kellner and a Bechstein to Kirnberger III there was a strong disparity of comments from the two camps, musicians liking the Bechstein and technicians saying how horrible it sounded - and in relation to that instrument, it's admittedly not the best. 

Yesterday I tuned a baby Pleyel for a student I've known in relation to an international competition which I tune for. After reviewing recordings of recent concerts we decided to give the strong tuning a go.

Testing unequal temperament tuning of Pleyel baby grand piano

was the result. Look at his smile!

With the chromatic tests to which he put the instrument there was a sort of cogging effect where the music locks into harmony and then releases and slips. This was a similar experience to a test by the Director of a conservatoire for whom I tuned recently playing one of the Bach preludes. This cogging effect is allied to the movement of dance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH_uGblpEe0

and our piano world really is related to other forms of musical arts, singing and dancing, but from which the mainstream piano world is disengaged.

As the Pleyel tuning which would certainly fail a PTG exam but which could evince such a smile, is it relevant to ask if the professional piano world has gone up a blind alley for the past century? Is it time to rethink?

The tuning isn't just for the Baroque. Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey

It makes music

Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey - 

here with Giovanni Bottesini Romanza Patetica

A major inspiration for this rhetorical question was some comments by an app addict on one of my videos recently accusing me of forms of ignorance, which are accepted, and commented "listening to this performance and disregarding completely the strange effect a historical temperament may have to our modern ears with smaller intervals, I find the octaves not qui in tune on the piano in the middle-low range and it is no surprise to me that a generic tuning was used". This technician was out of touch with how music properly sounded like and as we hear, for instance, on old French organs 

Bach Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at St Maximin

and for whom perfect octaves are golden whereas I might be aiming for something else. He was also blind to the quality of playing which the tuning influenced with a harpsichordist playing the piano as a harpsichordist exploiting the piano rather than a pianist trying to play the piano as a harpsichord.

Whilst there are many run-o-the-mill, there are increasing numbers of musicians who are becoming more discerning and who require their piano to serve their needs and which the conventional industry is more likely than not and especially getting appropriately tuned instruments onto the concert stage.

Can technicians and musicians who appreciate the wider genres reconnect?

Best wishes

David P

David, your arguments are not with me, but with Fred, a true scholar with whom you should engage. Address your replies to Fred. I concur with Fred on this subject, but he is the one who has obviously studied and documented this 'masterpiece' work. -- Steve

Fred Strum wrote a scholarly article on the history of temperament. I believe it is a 'must read' for anyone who wants to speak authoritatively on this subject. His article is very clear, comprehensive, exhaustive. 

Fred's article can be found at: 

https://www.artoftuning.com/tuning_history

A Clear and Practical Introduction to Temperament History

Part 1: Introduction

By Fred Sturm

Published in the Piano Technicians Journal, May, 2010

What I find most interesting in Fred's thesis is that Bach clearly intended that keys have no bias (no color compared to other keys). CPE Bach confirmed that. A good example of that would be the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, which I am very familiar with. Tuning that piece with unequal temperament makes absolutely no musical sense, I would say, nonsense!

I also found that Fred more or less proves that by the early-mid 19th century, tuning was 'equal temperament' generally. 

As a professional musician, I find Fred's conclusions above in line with my own musical instincts. I find that the current advocates of unequal temperament have no standing in the 21st century unless they want to tune a period piano to some particular early piece that is dominant in C, F, or G. Otherwise it again makes no sense. 

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. From what I've learned from period instrument guys in LA, "Historical temperaments" on harpsichord were typically tuned by musicians for a reason. If something like 1/4 meantone was used, they knew which notes were sharp and which were flat based on the key signature of the music. If they moved out of meantone to different tunings it was a way of consolidating differences and being more practical, but they always understood what they were doing.

If the music calls for a specific tuning like "Sonatra" and the pianist is surprised by how the piano sounds that is one thing. If you decide to play a baroque piece in E major in meantone and you ask the technician to tune G# instead of Ab that is another. I don't understand the idea of being a "musician" who is simply pushing buttons on a keyboard without any understanding of why they are different because a "technician" moved the pitches without basing it off of the actual key signature of the piece when the composer most likely had equal temperament in mind. (For example, you played Berg in unequal temperament one time and his music is conceptually based in 12 tone equal temperament.)

There is plenty of music written for equal temperament that needs to be in that temperament, there are people trying to be historical practitioners, and there is music that is written for new tuning systems. I don't mean to be too harsh but I consider what you are talking about to be a compositional practice based on your tuning lever and computer and not really related to global questions like "can musicians and technicians reconnect".

P.S. Have you considered taking more time to put together your research and writing some kind of thesis? I don't know how productive these posts are without a clear organization of your point.

In publishing continuing experiments a significant disconnect has become apparent between musicians and technicians.

Whilst formerly tuning nearly always with a twisted Kellner temperament, which was audible without being offensive, I'd been wary of using the stronger Kirnberger III tuning but following a test in Italy comparing a Steinway tuned to Kellner and a Bechstein to Kirnberger III there was a strong disparity of comments from the two camps, musicians liking the Bechstein and technicians saying how horrible it sounded - and in relation to that instrument, it's admittedly not the best. 

Yesterday I tuned a baby Pleyel for a student I've known in relation to an international competition which I tune for. After reviewing recordings of recent concerts we decided to give the strong tuning a go.

Testing unequal temperament tuning of Pleyel baby grand piano

was the result. Look at his smile!

With the chromatic tests to which he put the instrument there was a sort of cogging effect where the music locks into harmony and then releases and slips. This was a similar experience to a test by the Director of a conservatoire for whom I tuned recently playing one of the Bach preludes. This cogging effect is allied to the movement of dance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH_uGblpEe0

and our piano world really is related to other forms of musical arts, singing and dancing, but from which the mainstream piano world is disengaged.

As the Pleyel tuning which would certainly fail a PTG exam but which could evince such a smile, is it relevant to ask if the professional piano world has gone up a blind alley for the past century? Is it time to rethink?

The tuning isn't just for the Baroque. Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey

It makes music

Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey - 

here with Giovanni Bottesini Romanza Patetica

A major inspiration for this rhetorical question was some comments by an app addict on one of my videos recently accusing me of forms of ignorance, which are accepted, and commented "listening to this performance and disregarding completely the strange effect a historical temperament may have to our modern ears with smaller intervals, I find the octaves not qui in tune on the piano in the middle-low range and it is no surprise to me that a generic tuning was used". This technician was out of touch with how music properly sounded like and as we hear, for instance, on old French organs 

Bach Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at St Maximin

and for whom perfect octaves are golden whereas I might be aiming for something else. He was also blind to the quality of playing which the tuning influenced with a harpsichordist playing the piano as a harpsichordist exploiting the piano rather than a pianist trying to play the piano as a harpsichord.

Whilst there are many run-o-the-mill, there are increasing numbers of musicians who are becoming more discerning and who require their piano to serve their needs and which the conventional industry is more likely than not and especially getting appropriately tuned instruments onto the concert stage.

Can technicians and musicians who appreciate the wider genres reconnect?

Best wishes

David P

David, your arguments are not with me, but with Fred, a true scholar with whom you should engage. Address your replies to Fred. I concur with Fred on this subject, but he is the one who has obviously studied and documented this 'masterpiece' work. -- Steve

Fred Strum wrote a scholarly article on the history of temperament. I believe it is a 'must read' for anyone who wants to speak authoritatively on this subject. His article is very clear, comprehensive, exhaustive. 

Fred's article can be found at: 

https://www.artoftuning.com/tuning_history

A Clear and Practical Introduction to Temperament History

Part 1: Introduction

By Fred Sturm

Published in the Piano Technicians Journal, May, 2010

What I find most interesting in Fred's thesis is that Bach clearly intended that keys have no bias (no color compared to other keys). CPE Bach confirmed that. A good example of that would be the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, which I am very familiar with. Tuning that piece with unequal temperament makes absolutely no musical sense, I would say, nonsense!

I also found that Fred more or less proves that by the early-mid 19th century, tuning was 'equal temperament' generally. 

As a professional musician, I find Fred's conclusions above in line with my own musical instincts. I find that the current advocates of unequal temperament have no standing in the 21st century unless they want to tune a period piano to some particular early piece that is dominant in C, F, or G. Otherwise it again makes no sense. 

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
CEO/President
RF2BITS, Inc.
Cardiff CA
619-964-0101
steven@rf2bits.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2024 12:02
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Musician Technician Disconnect

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. From what I've learned from period instrument guys in LA, "Historical temperaments" on harpsichord were typically tuned by musicians for a reason. If something like 1/4 meantone was used, they knew which notes were sharp and which were flat based on the key signature of the music. If they moved out of meantone to different tunings it was a way of consolidating differences and being more practical, but they always understood what they were doing.

If the music calls for a specific tuning like "Sonatra" and the pianist is surprised by how the piano sounds that is one thing. If you decide to play a baroque piece in E major in meantone and you ask the technician to tune G# instead of Ab that is another. I don't understand the idea of being a "musician" who is simply pushing buttons on a keyboard without any understanding of why they are different because a "technician" moved the pitches without basing it off of the actual key signature of the piece when the composer most likely had equal temperament in mind. (For example, you played Berg in unequal temperament one time and his music is conceptually based in 12 tone equal temperament.)

There is plenty of music written for equal temperament that needs to be in that temperament, there are people trying to be historical practitioners, and there is music that is written for new tuning systems. I don't mean to be too harsh but I consider what you are talking about to be a compositional practice based on your tuning lever and computer and not really related to global questions like "can musicians and technicians reconnect".

P.S. Have you considered taking more time to put together your research and writing some kind of thesis? I don't know how productive these posts are without a clear organization of your point.

In publishing continuing experiments a significant disconnect has become apparent between musicians and technicians.

Whilst formerly tuning nearly always with a twisted Kellner temperament, which was audible without being offensive, I'd been wary of using the stronger Kirnberger III tuning but following a test in Italy comparing a Steinway tuned to Kellner and a Bechstein to Kirnberger III there was a strong disparity of comments from the two camps, musicians liking the Bechstein and technicians saying how horrible it sounded - and in relation to that instrument, it's admittedly not the best. 

Yesterday I tuned a baby Pleyel for a student I've known in relation to an international competition which I tune for. After reviewing recordings of recent concerts we decided to give the strong tuning a go.

Testing unequal temperament tuning of Pleyel baby grand piano

was the result. Look at his smile!

With the chromatic tests to which he put the instrument there was a sort of cogging effect where the music locks into harmony and then releases and slips. This was a similar experience to a test by the Director of a conservatoire for whom I tuned recently playing one of the Bach preludes. This cogging effect is allied to the movement of dance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH_uGblpEe0

and our piano world really is related to other forms of musical arts, singing and dancing, but from which the mainstream piano world is disengaged.

As the Pleyel tuning which would certainly fail a PTG exam but which could evince such a smile, is it relevant to ask if the professional piano world has gone up a blind alley for the past century? Is it time to rethink?

The tuning isn't just for the Baroque. Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey

It makes music

Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey - 

here with Giovanni Bottesini Romanza Patetica

A major inspiration for this rhetorical question was some comments by an app addict on one of my videos recently accusing me of forms of ignorance, which are accepted, and commented "listening to this performance and disregarding completely the strange effect a historical temperament may have to our modern ears with smaller intervals, I find the octaves not qui in tune on the piano in the middle-low range and it is no surprise to me that a generic tuning was used". This technician was out of touch with how music properly sounded like and as we hear, for instance, on old French organs 

Bach Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at St Maximin

and for whom perfect octaves are golden whereas I might be aiming for something else. He was also blind to the quality of playing which the tuning influenced with a harpsichordist playing the piano as a harpsichordist exploiting the piano rather than a pianist trying to play the piano as a harpsichord.

Whilst there are many run-o-the-mill, there are increasing numbers of musicians who are becoming more discerning and who require their piano to serve their needs and which the conventional industry is more likely than not and especially getting appropriately tuned instruments onto the concert stage.

Can technicians and musicians who appreciate the wider genres reconnect?

Best wishes

David P

If you have something scholarly to say, then I suggest a peer reviewed article in a 'journal' like Fred did.

I strongly encourage you to let others now start opining on the ET issue. Let them speak. Don't try to have the last word.

'Sounds beautiful' is 'totally subjective' If 99.9% of musicians want ET, and if Bach wanted it, and his son CPE confirmed it, then by the late 18th century we have a 'new trend'. If most of the musicians since the mid-19th century wanted it, then it confirms the trend.

Please don't force yourself, David. If you love your tuning style, then keep doing it for yourself and the people you serve. Also, you write such long replies. If you have something scholarly to say, then I suggest a peer reviewed article in a 'journal' like Fred did.

Let the market decide.

Steve N.

David, your arguments are not with me, but with Fred, a true scholar with whom you should engage. Address your replies to Fred. I concur with Fred on this subject, but he is the one who has obviously studied and documented this 'masterpiece' work. -- Steve

Fred Strum wrote a scholarly article on the history of temperament. I believe it is a 'must read' for anyone who wants to speak authoritatively on this subject. His article is very clear, comprehensive, exhaustive. 

Fred's article can be found at: 

https://www.artoftuning.com/tuning_history

A Clear and Practical Introduction to Temperament History

Part 1: Introduction

By Fred Sturm

Published in the Piano Technicians Journal, May, 2010

What I find most interesting in Fred's thesis is that Bach clearly intended that keys have no bias (no color compared to other keys). CPE Bach confirmed that. A good example of that would be the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, which I am very familiar with. Tuning that piece with unequal temperament makes absolutely no musical sense, I would say, nonsense!

I also found that Fred more or less proves that by the early-mid 19th century, tuning was 'equal temperament' generally. 

As a professional musician, I find Fred's conclusions above in line with my own musical instincts. I find that the current advocates of unequal temperament have no standing in the 21st century unless they want to tune a period piano to some particular early piece that is dominant in C, F, or G. Otherwise it again makes no sense. 

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. From what I've learned from period instrument guys in LA, "Historical temperaments" on harpsichord were typically tuned by musicians for a reason. If something like 1/4 meantone was used, they knew which notes were sharp and which were flat based on the key signature of the music. If they moved out of meantone to different tunings it was a way of consolidating differences and being more practical, but they always understood what they were doing.

If the music calls for a specific tuning like "Sonatra" and the pianist is surprised by how the piano sounds that is one thing. If you decide to play a baroque piece in E major in meantone and you ask the technician to tune G# instead of Ab that is another. I don't understand the idea of being a "musician" who is simply pushing buttons on a keyboard without any understanding of why they are different because a "technician" moved the pitches without basing it off of the actual key signature of the piece when the composer most likely had equal temperament in mind. (For example, you played Berg in unequal temperament one time and his music is conceptually based in 12 tone equal temperament.)

There is plenty of music written for equal temperament that needs to be in that temperament, there are people trying to be historical practitioners, and there is music that is written for new tuning systems. I don't mean to be too harsh but I consider what you are talking about to be a compositional practice based on your tuning lever and computer and not really related to global questions like "can musicians and technicians reconnect".

P.S. Have you considered taking more time to put together your research and writing some kind of thesis? I don't know how productive these posts are without a clear organization of your point.

In publishing continuing experiments a significant disconnect has become apparent between musicians and technicians.

Whilst formerly tuning nearly always with a twisted Kellner temperament, which was audible without being offensive, I'd been wary of using the stronger Kirnberger III tuning but following a test in Italy comparing a Steinway tuned to Kellner and a Bechstein to Kirnberger III there was a strong disparity of comments from the two camps, musicians liking the Bechstein and technicians saying how horrible it sounded - and in relation to that instrument, it's admittedly not the best. 

Yesterday I tuned a baby Pleyel for a student I've known in relation to an international competition which I tune for. After reviewing recordings of recent concerts we decided to give the strong tuning a go.

Testing unequal temperament tuning of Pleyel baby grand piano

was the result. Look at his smile!

With the chromatic tests to which he put the instrument there was a sort of cogging effect where the music locks into harmony and then releases and slips. This was a similar experience to a test by the Director of a conservatoire for whom I tuned recently playing one of the Bach preludes. This cogging effect is allied to the movement of dance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH_uGblpEe0

and our piano world really is related to other forms of musical arts, singing and dancing, but from which the mainstream piano world is disengaged.

As the Pleyel tuning which would certainly fail a PTG exam but which could evince such a smile, is it relevant to ask if the professional piano world has gone up a blind alley for the past century? Is it time to rethink?

The tuning isn't just for the Baroque. Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey

It makes music

Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey - 

here with Giovanni Bottesini Romanza Patetica

A major inspiration for this rhetorical question was some comments by an app addict on one of my videos recently accusing me of forms of ignorance, which are accepted, and commented "listening to this performance and disregarding completely the strange effect a historical temperament may have to our modern ears with smaller intervals, I find the octaves not qui in tune on the piano in the middle-low range and it is no surprise to me that a generic tuning was used". This technician was out of touch with how music properly sounded like and as we hear, for instance, on old French organs 

Bach Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at St Maximin

and for whom perfect octaves are golden whereas I might be aiming for something else. He was also blind to the quality of playing which the tuning influenced with a harpsichordist playing the piano as a harpsichordist exploiting the piano rather than a pianist trying to play the piano as a harpsichord.

Whilst there are many run-o-the-mill, there are increasing numbers of musicians who are becoming more discerning and who require their piano to serve their needs and which the conventional industry is more likely than not and especially getting appropriately tuned instruments onto the concert stage.

Can technicians and musicians who appreciate the wider genres reconnect?

Best wishes

David P

If you have something scholarly to say, then I suggest a peer reviewed article in a 'journal' like Fred did.

I strongly encourage you to let others now start opining on the ET issue. Let them speak. Don't try to have the last word.

'Sounds beautiful' is 'totally subjective' If 99.9% of musicians want ET, and if Bach wanted it, and his son CPE confirmed it, then by the late 18th century we have a 'new trend'. If most of the musicians since the mid-19th century wanted it, then it confirms the trend.

Please don't force yourself, David. If you love your tuning style, then keep doing it for yourself and the people you serve. Also, you write such long replies. If you have something scholarly to say, then I suggest a peer reviewed article in a 'journal' like Fred did.

Let the market decide.

Steve N.

David, your arguments are not with me, but with Fred, a true scholar with whom you should engage. Address your replies to Fred. I concur with Fred on this subject, but he is the one who has obviously studied and documented this 'masterpiece' work. -- Steve

Fred Strum wrote a scholarly article on the history of temperament. I believe it is a 'must read' for anyone who wants to speak authoritatively on this subject. His article is very clear, comprehensive, exhaustive. 

Fred's article can be found at: 

https://www.artoftuning.com/tuning_history

A Clear and Practical Introduction to Temperament History

Part 1: Introduction

By Fred Sturm

Published in the Piano Technicians Journal, May, 2010

What I find most interesting in Fred's thesis is that Bach clearly intended that keys have no bias (no color compared to other keys). CPE Bach confirmed that. A good example of that would be the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, which I am very familiar with. Tuning that piece with unequal temperament makes absolutely no musical sense, I would say, nonsense!

I also found that Fred more or less proves that by the early-mid 19th century, tuning was 'equal temperament' generally. 

As a professional musician, I find Fred's conclusions above in line with my own musical instincts. I find that the current advocates of unequal temperament have no standing in the 21st century unless they want to tune a period piano to some particular early piece that is dominant in C, F, or G. Otherwise it again makes no sense. 

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. From what I've learned from period instrument guys in LA, "Historical temperaments" on harpsichord were typically tuned by musicians for a reason. If something like 1/4 meantone was used, they knew which notes were sharp and which were flat based on the key signature of the music. If they moved out of meantone to different tunings it was a way of consolidating differences and being more practical, but they always understood what they were doing.

If the music calls for a specific tuning like "Sonatra" and the pianist is surprised by how the piano sounds that is one thing. If you decide to play a baroque piece in E major in meantone and you ask the technician to tune G# instead of Ab that is another. I don't understand the idea of being a "musician" who is simply pushing buttons on a keyboard without any understanding of why they are different because a "technician" moved the pitches without basing it off of the actual key signature of the piece when the composer most likely had equal temperament in mind. (For example, you played Berg in unequal temperament one time and his music is conceptually based in 12 tone equal temperament.)

There is plenty of music written for equal temperament that needs to be in that temperament, there are people trying to be historical practitioners, and there is music that is written for new tuning systems. I don't mean to be too harsh but I consider what you are talking about to be a compositional practice based on your tuning lever and computer and not really related to global questions like "can musicians and technicians reconnect".

P.S. Have you considered taking more time to put together your research and writing some kind of thesis? I don't know how productive these posts are without a clear organization of your point.

In publishing continuing experiments a significant disconnect has become apparent between musicians and technicians.

Whilst formerly tuning nearly always with a twisted Kellner temperament, which was audible without being offensive, I'd been wary of using the stronger Kirnberger III tuning but following a test in Italy comparing a Steinway tuned to Kellner and a Bechstein to Kirnberger III there was a strong disparity of comments from the two camps, musicians liking the Bechstein and technicians saying how horrible it sounded - and in relation to that instrument, it's admittedly not the best. 

Yesterday I tuned a baby Pleyel for a student I've known in relation to an international competition which I tune for. After reviewing recordings of recent concerts we decided to give the strong tuning a go.

Testing unequal temperament tuning of Pleyel baby grand piano

was the result. Look at his smile!

With the chromatic tests to which he put the instrument there was a sort of cogging effect where the music locks into harmony and then releases and slips. This was a similar experience to a test by the Director of a conservatoire for whom I tuned recently playing one of the Bach preludes. This cogging effect is allied to the movement of dance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH_uGblpEe0

and our piano world really is related to other forms of musical arts, singing and dancing, but from which the mainstream piano world is disengaged.

As the Pleyel tuning which would certainly fail a PTG exam but which could evince such a smile, is it relevant to ask if the professional piano world has gone up a blind alley for the past century? Is it time to rethink?

The tuning isn't just for the Baroque. Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey

It makes music

Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey - 

here with Giovanni Bottesini Romanza Patetica

A major inspiration for this rhetorical question was some comments by an app addict on one of my videos recently accusing me of forms of ignorance, which are accepted, and commented "listening to this performance and disregarding completely the strange effect a historical temperament may have to our modern ears with smaller intervals, I find the octaves not qui in tune on the piano in the middle-low range and it is no surprise to me that a generic tuning was used". This technician was out of touch with how music properly sounded like and as we hear, for instance, on old French organs 

Bach Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at St Maximin

and for whom perfect octaves are golden whereas I might be aiming for something else. He was also blind to the quality of playing which the tuning influenced with a harpsichordist playing the piano as a harpsichordist exploiting the piano rather than a pianist trying to play the piano as a harpsichord.

Whilst there are many run-o-the-mill, there are increasing numbers of musicians who are becoming more discerning and who require their piano to serve their needs and which the conventional industry is more likely than not and especially getting appropriately tuned instruments onto the concert stage.

Can technicians and musicians who appreciate the wider genres reconnect?

Best wishes

David P

David, your arguments are not with me, but with Fred, a true scholar with whom you should engage. Address your replies to Fred. I concur with Fred on this subject, but he is the one who has obviously studied and documented this 'masterpiece' work. -- Steve

Fred Strum wrote a scholarly article on the history of temperament. I believe it is a 'must read' for anyone who wants to speak authoritatively on this subject. His article is very clear, comprehensive, exhaustive. 

Fred's article can be found at: 

https://www.artoftuning.com/tuning_history

A Clear and Practical Introduction to Temperament History

Part 1: Introduction

By Fred Sturm

Published in the Piano Technicians Journal, May, 2010

What I find most interesting in Fred's thesis is that Bach clearly intended that keys have no bias (no color compared to other keys). CPE Bach confirmed that. A good example of that would be the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, which I am very familiar with. Tuning that piece with unequal temperament makes absolutely no musical sense, I would say, nonsense!

I also found that Fred more or less proves that by the early-mid 19th century, tuning was 'equal temperament' generally. 

As a professional musician, I find Fred's conclusions above in line with my own musical instincts. I find that the current advocates of unequal temperament have no standing in the 21st century unless they want to tune a period piano to some particular early piece that is dominant in C, F, or G. Otherwise it again makes no sense. 

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. From what I've learned from period instrument guys in LA, "Historical temperaments" on harpsichord were typically tuned by musicians for a reason. If something like 1/4 meantone was used, they knew which notes were sharp and which were flat based on the key signature of the music. If they moved out of meantone to different tunings it was a way of consolidating differences and being more practical, but they always understood what they were doing.

If the music calls for a specific tuning like "Sonatra" and the pianist is surprised by how the piano sounds that is one thing. If you decide to play a baroque piece in E major in meantone and you ask the technician to tune G# instead of Ab that is another. I don't understand the idea of being a "musician" who is simply pushing buttons on a keyboard without any understanding of why they are different because a "technician" moved the pitches without basing it off of the actual key signature of the piece when the composer most likely had equal temperament in mind. (For example, you played Berg in unequal temperament one time and his music is conceptually based in 12 tone equal temperament.)

There is plenty of music written for equal temperament that needs to be in that temperament, there are people trying to be historical practitioners, and there is music that is written for new tuning systems. I don't mean to be too harsh but I consider what you are talking about to be a compositional practice based on your tuning lever and computer and not really related to global questions like "can musicians and technicians reconnect".

P.S. Have you considered taking more time to put together your research and writing some kind of thesis? I don't know how productive these posts are without a clear organization of your point.

In publishing continuing experiments a significant disconnect has become apparent between musicians and technicians.

Whilst formerly tuning nearly always with a twisted Kellner temperament, which was audible without being offensive, I'd been wary of using the stronger Kirnberger III tuning but following a test in Italy comparing a Steinway tuned to Kellner and a Bechstein to Kirnberger III there was a strong disparity of comments from the two camps, musicians liking the Bechstein and technicians saying how horrible it sounded - and in relation to that instrument, it's admittedly not the best. 

Yesterday I tuned a baby Pleyel for a student I've known in relation to an international competition which I tune for. After reviewing recordings of recent concerts we decided to give the strong tuning a go.

Testing unequal temperament tuning of Pleyel baby grand piano

was the result. Look at his smile!

With the chromatic tests to which he put the instrument there was a sort of cogging effect where the music locks into harmony and then releases and slips. This was a similar experience to a test by the Director of a conservatoire for whom I tuned recently playing one of the Bach preludes. This cogging effect is allied to the movement of dance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH_uGblpEe0

and our piano world really is related to other forms of musical arts, singing and dancing, but from which the mainstream piano world is disengaged.

As the Pleyel tuning which would certainly fail a PTG exam but which could evince such a smile, is it relevant to ask if the professional piano world has gone up a blind alley for the past century? Is it time to rethink?

The tuning isn't just for the Baroque. Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey

It makes music

Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey - 

here with Giovanni Bottesini Romanza Patetica

A major inspiration for this rhetorical question was some comments by an app addict on one of my videos recently accusing me of forms of ignorance, which are accepted, and commented "listening to this performance and disregarding completely the strange effect a historical temperament may have to our modern ears with smaller intervals, I find the octaves not qui in tune on the piano in the middle-low range and it is no surprise to me that a generic tuning was used". This technician was out of touch with how music properly sounded like and as we hear, for instance, on old French organs 

Bach Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at St Maximin

and for whom perfect octaves are golden whereas I might be aiming for something else. He was also blind to the quality of playing which the tuning influenced with a harpsichordist playing the piano as a harpsichordist exploiting the piano rather than a pianist trying to play the piano as a harpsichord.

Whilst there are many run-o-the-mill, there are increasing numbers of musicians who are becoming more discerning and who require their piano to serve their needs and which the conventional industry is more likely than not and especially getting appropriately tuned instruments onto the concert stage.

Can technicians and musicians who appreciate the wider genres reconnect?

Best wishes

David P

------------------------------
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
+44 1342 850594
"High Definition" Tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2024 16:51
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Musician Technician Disconnect

Original Message:
Sent: 8/12/2024 4:30:00 PM
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: RE: Musician Technician Disconnect

David, your arguments are not with me, but with Fred, a true scholar with whom you should engage. Address your replies to Fred. I concur with Fred on this subject, but he is the one who has obviously studied and documented this 'masterpiece' work. -- Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
CEO/President
RF2BITS, Inc.
Cardiff CA
619-964-0101
steven@rf2bits.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2024 15:59
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Musician Technician Disconnect

Original Message:
Sent: 8/12/2024 3:05:00 PM
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: RE: Musician Technician Disconnect

Fred Strum wrote a scholarly article on the history of temperament. I believe it is a 'must read' for anyone who wants to speak authoritatively on this subject. His article is very clear, comprehensive, exhaustive. 

Fred's article can be found at: 

https://www.artoftuning.com/tuning_history

A Clear and Practical Introduction to Temperament History

Part 1: Introduction

By Fred Sturm

Published in the Piano Technicians Journal, May, 2010

What I find most interesting in Fred's thesis is that Bach clearly intended that keys have no bias (no color compared to other keys). CPE Bach confirmed that. A good example of that would be the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, which I am very familiar with. Tuning that piece with unequal temperament makes absolutely no musical sense, I would say, nonsense!

I also found that Fred more or less proves that by the early-mid 19th century, tuning was 'equal temperament' generally. 

As a professional musician, I find Fred's conclusions above in line with my own musical instincts. I find that the current advocates of unequal temperament have no standing in the 21st century unless they want to tune a period piano to some particular early piece that is dominant in C, F, or G. Otherwise it again makes no sense. 

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
CEO/President
RF2BITS, Inc.
Cardiff CA
619-964-0101
steven@rf2bits.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2024 12:02
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Musician Technician Disconnect

Original Message:
Sent: 8/12/2024 9:18:00 AM
From: Jesse Reyes
Subject: RE: Musician Technician Disconnect

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. From what I've learned from period instrument guys in LA, "Historical temperaments" on harpsichord were typically tuned by musicians for a reason. If something like 1/4 meantone was used, they knew which notes were sharp and which were flat based on the key signature of the music. If they moved out of meantone to different tunings it was a way of consolidating differences and being more practical, but they always understood what they were doing.

If the music calls for a specific tuning like "Sonatra" and the pianist is surprised by how the piano sounds that is one thing. If you decide to play a baroque piece in E major in meantone and you ask the technician to tune G# instead of Ab that is another. I don't understand the idea of being a "musician" who is simply pushing buttons on a keyboard without any understanding of why they are different because a "technician" moved the pitches without basing it off of the actual key signature of the piece when the composer most likely had equal temperament in mind. (For example, you played Berg in unequal temperament one time and his music is conceptually based in 12 tone equal temperament.)

There is plenty of music written for equal temperament that needs to be in that temperament, there are people trying to be historical practitioners, and there is music that is written for new tuning systems. I don't mean to be too harsh but I consider what you are talking about to be a compositional practice based on your tuning lever and computer and not really related to global questions like "can musicians and technicians reconnect".

P.S. Have you considered taking more time to put together your research and writing some kind of thesis? I don't know how productive these posts are without a clear organization of your point.

------------------------------
Jesse Reyes
Los Angeles CA
(310) 704-7636

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 06:28
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Musician Technician Disconnect

In publishing continuing experiments a significant disconnect has become apparent between musicians and technicians.

Whilst formerly tuning nearly always with a twisted Kellner temperament, which was audible without being offensive, I'd been wary of using the stronger Kirnberger III tuning but following a test in Italy comparing a Steinway tuned to Kellner and a Bechstein to Kirnberger III there was a strong disparity of comments from the two camps, musicians liking the Bechstein and technicians saying how horrible it sounded - and in relation to that instrument, it's admittedly not the best. 

Yesterday I tuned a baby Pleyel for a student I've known in relation to an international competition which I tune for. After reviewing recordings of recent concerts we decided to give the strong tuning a go.

Testing unequal temperament tuning of Pleyel baby grand piano

was the result. Look at his smile!

With the chromatic tests to which he put the instrument there was a sort of cogging effect where the music locks into harmony and then releases and slips. This was a similar experience to a test by the Director of a conservatoire for whom I tuned recently playing one of the Bach preludes. This cogging effect is allied to the movement of dance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH_uGblpEe0

and our piano world really is related to other forms of musical arts, singing and dancing, but from which the mainstream piano world is disengaged.

As the Pleyel tuning which would certainly fail a PTG exam but which could evince such a smile, is it relevant to ask if the professional piano world has gone up a blind alley for the past century? Is it time to rethink?

The tuning isn't just for the Baroque. Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey

It makes music

Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey - 

here with Giovanni Bottesini Romanza Patetica

A major inspiration for this rhetorical question was some comments by an app addict on one of my videos recently accusing me of forms of ignorance, which are accepted, and commented "listening to this performance and disregarding completely the strange effect a historical temperament may have to our modern ears with smaller intervals, I find the octaves not qui in tune on the piano in the middle-low range and it is no surprise to me that a generic tuning was used". This technician was out of touch with how music properly sounded like and as we hear, for instance, on old French organs 

Bach Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at St Maximin

and for whom perfect octaves are golden whereas I might be aiming for something else. He was also blind to the quality of playing which the tuning influenced with a harpsichordist playing the piano as a harpsichordist exploiting the piano rather than a pianist trying to play the piano as a harpsichord.

Whilst there are many run-o-the-mill, there are increasing numbers of musicians who are becoming more discerning and who require their piano to serve their needs and which the conventional industry is more likely than not and especially getting appropriately tuned instruments onto the concert stage.

Can technicians and musicians who appreciate the wider genres reconnect?

Best wishes

David P

------------------------------
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
+44 1342 850594
"High Definition" Tuning
------------------------------

If Fred Sturm's thesis is exhaustively and comprehensively correct, which I believe it is, then we have almost 200 years of equal temperament, or at least the 'intent' of ET as best as could be done with the tools and ears at the time. Once the mid-19th Century went into highly chromatic music, then the whole rationale for unequal temperament falls totally apart into illogical and wishful thinking. To try to persuade the audience in the year 2024 otherwise, well, it is an exercise that will not result in persuasion, and we will not dial back the clock to the 16th-17th Century. If some people still write endlessly on trying to persuade 99.99% of the group that UT is the way to go and that ET is wrong, then 'lots of luck.'

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
CEO/President
RF2BITS, Inc.
Cardiff CA
619-964-0101
steven@rf2bits.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 08:06
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Musician Technician Disconnect

------------------------------
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
+44 1342 850594
"High Definition" Tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2024 16:51
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Musician Technician Disconnect

Original Message:
Sent: 8/12/2024 4:30:00 PM
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: RE: Musician Technician Disconnect

David, your arguments are not with me, but with Fred, a true scholar with whom you should engage. Address your replies to Fred. I concur with Fred on this subject, but he is the one who has obviously studied and documented this 'masterpiece' work. -- Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
CEO/President
RF2BITS, Inc.
Cardiff CA
619-964-0101
steven@rf2bits.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2024 15:59
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Musician Technician Disconnect

Original Message:
Sent: 8/12/2024 3:05:00 PM
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: RE: Musician Technician Disconnect

Fred Strum wrote a scholarly article on the history of temperament. I believe it is a 'must read' for anyone who wants to speak authoritatively on this subject. His article is very clear, comprehensive, exhaustive. 

Fred's article can be found at: 

https://www.artoftuning.com/tuning_history

A Clear and Practical Introduction to Temperament History

Part 1: Introduction

By Fred Sturm

Published in the Piano Technicians Journal, May, 2010

What I find most interesting in Fred's thesis is that Bach clearly intended that keys have no bias (no color compared to other keys). CPE Bach confirmed that. A good example of that would be the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, which I am very familiar with. Tuning that piece with unequal temperament makes absolutely no musical sense, I would say, nonsense!

I also found that Fred more or less proves that by the early-mid 19th century, tuning was 'equal temperament' generally. 

As a professional musician, I find Fred's conclusions above in line with my own musical instincts. I find that the current advocates of unequal temperament have no standing in the 21st century unless they want to tune a period piano to some particular early piece that is dominant in C, F, or G. Otherwise it again makes no sense. 

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
CEO/President
RF2BITS, Inc.
Cardiff CA
619-964-0101
steven@rf2bits.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2024 12:02
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Musician Technician Disconnect

Original Message:
Sent: 8/12/2024 9:18:00 AM
From: Jesse Reyes
Subject: RE: Musician Technician Disconnect

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. From what I've learned from period instrument guys in LA, "Historical temperaments" on harpsichord were typically tuned by musicians for a reason. If something like 1/4 meantone was used, they knew which notes were sharp and which were flat based on the key signature of the music. If they moved out of meantone to different tunings it was a way of consolidating differences and being more practical, but they always understood what they were doing.

If the music calls for a specific tuning like "Sonatra" and the pianist is surprised by how the piano sounds that is one thing. If you decide to play a baroque piece in E major in meantone and you ask the technician to tune G# instead of Ab that is another. I don't understand the idea of being a "musician" who is simply pushing buttons on a keyboard without any understanding of why they are different because a "technician" moved the pitches without basing it off of the actual key signature of the piece when the composer most likely had equal temperament in mind. (For example, you played Berg in unequal temperament one time and his music is conceptually based in 12 tone equal temperament.)

There is plenty of music written for equal temperament that needs to be in that temperament, there are people trying to be historical practitioners, and there is music that is written for new tuning systems. I don't mean to be too harsh but I consider what you are talking about to be a compositional practice based on your tuning lever and computer and not really related to global questions like "can musicians and technicians reconnect".

P.S. Have you considered taking more time to put together your research and writing some kind of thesis? I don't know how productive these posts are without a clear organization of your point.

------------------------------
Jesse Reyes
Los Angeles CA
(310) 704-7636

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 06:28
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Musician Technician Disconnect

In publishing continuing experiments a significant disconnect has become apparent between musicians and technicians.

Whilst formerly tuning nearly always with a twisted Kellner temperament, which was audible without being offensive, I'd been wary of using the stronger Kirnberger III tuning but following a test in Italy comparing a Steinway tuned to Kellner and a Bechstein to Kirnberger III there was a strong disparity of comments from the two camps, musicians liking the Bechstein and technicians saying how horrible it sounded - and in relation to that instrument, it's admittedly not the best. 

Yesterday I tuned a baby Pleyel for a student I've known in relation to an international competition which I tune for. After reviewing recordings of recent concerts we decided to give the strong tuning a go.

Testing unequal temperament tuning of Pleyel baby grand piano

was the result. Look at his smile!

With the chromatic tests to which he put the instrument there was a sort of cogging effect where the music locks into harmony and then releases and slips. This was a similar experience to a test by the Director of a conservatoire for whom I tuned recently playing one of the Bach preludes. This cogging effect is allied to the movement of dance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH_uGblpEe0

and our piano world really is related to other forms of musical arts, singing and dancing, but from which the mainstream piano world is disengaged.

As the Pleyel tuning which would certainly fail a PTG exam but which could evince such a smile, is it relevant to ask if the professional piano world has gone up a blind alley for the past century? Is it time to rethink?

The tuning isn't just for the Baroque. Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey

It makes music

Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey - 

here with Giovanni Bottesini Romanza Patetica

A major inspiration for this rhetorical question was some comments by an app addict on one of my videos recently accusing me of forms of ignorance, which are accepted, and commented "listening to this performance and disregarding completely the strange effect a historical temperament may have to our modern ears with smaller intervals, I find the octaves not qui in tune on the piano in the middle-low range and it is no surprise to me that a generic tuning was used". This technician was out of touch with how music properly sounded like and as we hear, for instance, on old French organs 

Bach Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at St Maximin

and for whom perfect octaves are golden whereas I might be aiming for something else. He was also blind to the quality of playing which the tuning influenced with a harpsichordist playing the piano as a harpsichordist exploiting the piano rather than a pianist trying to play the piano as a harpsichord.

Whilst there are many run-o-the-mill, there are increasing numbers of musicians who are becoming more discerning and who require their piano to serve their needs and which the conventional industry is more likely than not and especially getting appropriately tuned instruments onto the concert stage.

Can technicians and musicians who appreciate the wider genres reconnect?

Best wishes

David P

------------------------------
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
+44 1342 850594
"High Definition" Tuning
------------------------------

If Fred Sturm's thesis is exhaustively and comprehensively correct, which I believe it is, then we have almost 200 years of equal temperament, or at least the 'intent' of ET as best as could be done with the tools and ears at the time. Once the mid-19th Century went into highly chromatic music, then the whole rationale for unequal temperament falls totally apart into illogical and wishful thinking. To try to persuade the audience in the year 2024 otherwise, well, it is an exercise that will not result in persuasion, and we will not dial back the clock to the 16th-17th Century. If some people still write endlessly on trying to persuade 99.99% of the group that UT is the way to go and that ET is wrong, then 'lots of luck.'

Steve N.

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
CEO/President
RF2BITS, Inc.
Cardiff CA
619-964-0101
steven@rf2bits.com
------------------------------

Original Message:
Sent: 08-14-2024 08:06
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Musician Technician Disconnect

------------------------------
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
+44 1342 850594
"High Definition" Tuning

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2024 16:51
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Musician Technician Disconnect

Original Message:
Sent: 8/12/2024 4:30:00 PM
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: RE: Musician Technician Disconnect

David, your arguments are not with me, but with Fred, a true scholar with whom you should engage. Address your replies to Fred. I concur with Fred on this subject, but he is the one who has obviously studied and documented this 'masterpiece' work. -- Steve

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
CEO/President
RF2BITS, Inc.
Cardiff CA
619-964-0101
steven@rf2bits.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2024 15:59
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Musician Technician Disconnect

Original Message:
Sent: 8/12/2024 3:05:00 PM
From: Steven Norsworthy
Subject: RE: Musician Technician Disconnect

Fred Strum wrote a scholarly article on the history of temperament. I believe it is a 'must read' for anyone who wants to speak authoritatively on this subject. His article is very clear, comprehensive, exhaustive. 

Fred's article can be found at: 

https://www.artoftuning.com/tuning_history

A Clear and Practical Introduction to Temperament History

Part 1: Introduction

By Fred Sturm

Published in the Piano Technicians Journal, May, 2010

What I find most interesting in Fred's thesis is that Bach clearly intended that keys have no bias (no color compared to other keys). CPE Bach confirmed that. A good example of that would be the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, which I am very familiar with. Tuning that piece with unequal temperament makes absolutely no musical sense, I would say, nonsense!

I also found that Fred more or less proves that by the early-mid 19th century, tuning was 'equal temperament' generally. 

As a professional musician, I find Fred's conclusions above in line with my own musical instincts. I find that the current advocates of unequal temperament have no standing in the 21st century unless they want to tune a period piano to some particular early piece that is dominant in C, F, or G. Otherwise it again makes no sense. 

------------------------------
Steven Norsworthy
CEO/President
RF2BITS, Inc.
Cardiff CA
619-964-0101
steven@rf2bits.com

Original Message:
Sent: 08-12-2024 12:02
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Musician Technician Disconnect

Original Message:
Sent: 8/12/2024 9:18:00 AM
From: Jesse Reyes
Subject: RE: Musician Technician Disconnect

I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from. From what I've learned from period instrument guys in LA, "Historical temperaments" on harpsichord were typically tuned by musicians for a reason. If something like 1/4 meantone was used, they knew which notes were sharp and which were flat based on the key signature of the music. If they moved out of meantone to different tunings it was a way of consolidating differences and being more practical, but they always understood what they were doing.

If the music calls for a specific tuning like "Sonatra" and the pianist is surprised by how the piano sounds that is one thing. If you decide to play a baroque piece in E major in meantone and you ask the technician to tune G# instead of Ab that is another. I don't understand the idea of being a "musician" who is simply pushing buttons on a keyboard without any understanding of why they are different because a "technician" moved the pitches without basing it off of the actual key signature of the piece when the composer most likely had equal temperament in mind. (For example, you played Berg in unequal temperament one time and his music is conceptually based in 12 tone equal temperament.)

There is plenty of music written for equal temperament that needs to be in that temperament, there are people trying to be historical practitioners, and there is music that is written for new tuning systems. I don't mean to be too harsh but I consider what you are talking about to be a compositional practice based on your tuning lever and computer and not really related to global questions like "can musicians and technicians reconnect".

P.S. Have you considered taking more time to put together your research and writing some kind of thesis? I don't know how productive these posts are without a clear organization of your point.

------------------------------
Jesse Reyes
Los Angeles CA
(310) 704-7636

Original Message:
Sent: 08-11-2024 06:28
From: David Pinnegar
Subject: Musician Technician Disconnect

In publishing continuing experiments a significant disconnect has become apparent between musicians and technicians.

Whilst formerly tuning nearly always with a twisted Kellner temperament, which was audible without being offensive, I'd been wary of using the stronger Kirnberger III tuning but following a test in Italy comparing a Steinway tuned to Kellner and a Bechstein to Kirnberger III there was a strong disparity of comments from the two camps, musicians liking the Bechstein and technicians saying how horrible it sounded - and in relation to that instrument, it's admittedly not the best. 

Yesterday I tuned a baby Pleyel for a student I've known in relation to an international competition which I tune for. After reviewing recordings of recent concerts we decided to give the strong tuning a go.

Testing unequal temperament tuning of Pleyel baby grand piano

was the result. Look at his smile!

With the chromatic tests to which he put the instrument there was a sort of cogging effect where the music locks into harmony and then releases and slips. This was a similar experience to a test by the Director of a conservatoire for whom I tuned recently playing one of the Bach preludes. This cogging effect is allied to the movement of dance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fH_uGblpEe0

and our piano world really is related to other forms of musical arts, singing and dancing, but from which the mainstream piano world is disengaged.

As the Pleyel tuning which would certainly fail a PTG exam but which could evince such a smile, is it relevant to ask if the professional piano world has gone up a blind alley for the past century? Is it time to rethink?

The tuning isn't just for the Baroque. Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey

It makes music

Double Bass and Piano in unequal temperament Alexandra Kremakova and Alex Ferkey - 

here with Giovanni Bottesini Romanza Patetica

A major inspiration for this rhetorical question was some comments by an app addict on one of my videos recently accusing me of forms of ignorance, which are accepted, and commented "listening to this performance and disregarding completely the strange effect a historical temperament may have to our modern ears with smaller intervals, I find the octaves not qui in tune on the piano in the middle-low range and it is no surprise to me that a generic tuning was used". This technician was out of touch with how music properly sounded like and as we hear, for instance, on old French organs 

Bach Toccata and Fugue in D Minor at St Maximin

and for whom perfect octaves are golden whereas I might be aiming for something else. He was also blind to the quality of playing which the tuning influenced with a harpsichordist playing the piano as a harpsichordist exploiting the piano rather than a pianist trying to play the piano as a harpsichord.

Whilst there are many run-o-the-mill, there are increasing numbers of musicians who are becoming more discerning and who require their piano to serve their needs and which the conventional industry is more likely than not and especially getting appropriately tuned instruments onto the concert stage.

Can technicians and musicians who appreciate the wider genres reconnect?

Best wishes

David P

------------------------------
David Pinnegar BSc ARCS
Hammerwood Park, East Grinstead, Sussex, UK
+44 1342 850594
"High Definition" Tuning
------------------------------