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Samick SIG 50

  • 1.  Samick SIG 50

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-02-2024 15:22

    Greetings and Happy New Year!  Over the years, I have worked on plenty of Samick grand pianos and have encountered some of the excessive friction with the action center pinning.  On this particular piano (which I estimate around 15 years of age) the jacks have been the culprit.  The piano has always presented with excessive friction in the jacks since I have been servicing the piano over the past 7 years.  Protek lubricant has done very little with only very short term results at best.  In October 2021, I scheduled some time to work on the piano and at that time the jacks were really presenting with a high degree of friction.  Some of the jacks were actually frozen.  I ended up resizing/fitting/repinning nearly 40 of the jacks and was very careful to obtain a nice proper fit in both the jack birds-eye and in the felt bushings.  When I finished the piano was playing as best as ever since I began servicing the instrument.  I followed up with a phone call to my client a few months after the work and my client reported that everything was working fine. 

    This year just before Christmas, I received a call from my client advising that his daughter would be home for the holidays playing the piano and to report that there are a couple notes not playing.  Around 7:45 PM on December 22, 2023, I stopped by for what I assumed would be a quick service call to address a couple sticking notes.  To my surprise, I found much more in the way of friction than I ever expected or was reported. I was very disappointed in what I had found.  In an attempt to keep the client hovering until they could fly, I lubricated all the jacks with Protek and worked the couple that were frozen aggressively enough with multiple applications of lubrication to get them to play.  I would be surprised if this got them through the holidays.  My records indicate that I re-pinned 37 notes in October 2021, however, I did not list each note specifically re pinned but did indicate in my service notes that I left a chalk mark on each whippen by the jack window on the notes that were re-pinned and fitted in October 2021.  I'm fairly certain that at least some of notes re-pinned in October 2021 are among some of the notes that were sticking during my service call recently on December 22, 2023.   It is worth noting, that this piano is equipped with a piano disc system.  Since it was already the end of a very long day and in the home just before Christmas I elected not to pull the action for further investigation and work that evening.  I left that evening after explaining to the customer that hopefully the lubrication would carry through the holidays but a return service visit would be required after the holidays for a more in depth evaluation and recommendation.  Now, I am pondering my next options.  I have attended various classes at convention and recall reading some articles regarding pinning friction problems in Samick and other similar brand pianos manufactured in the general region. I have heard that there might have been a reaction between the glue and the felt, a possibility of twisted bushing cloth that resulted in friction and on and on.  Experience has lead to some of my own opinions, however, normally I get the piano to adequately perform.  This one seems to be much more stubborn so I'm seeking any advice about written article, or past experiences and remedies that anyone might add that might be helpful.  If the previous re-pinning did not seem to provide a long term result, I am skeptical to consider re-bushing all the flanges.  Whippen part replacement on this entry level piano would normally not seem feasible, however, since the piano was purchased new and is equipped with a piano disc system this complicates the matter further.  I'm hoping to come up with a reasonable solution to address the problem long term and to present to my client when I return in the next few weeks.  Thanking you in advance for any helpful input.

    Dan Alberts

    RPT Pittsburgh, PA              



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    Daniel Alberts RPT
    Connellsville PA
    (724) 628-4298
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  • 2.  RE: Samick SIG 50

    Posted 01-02-2024 16:10

    hello Dan,

    typical issue with korean and chinese made pianos unfortunately... When i find a piano with that many flange issues, i will not re-pin just the bad actors but rather the entire set.

    only when in a pinch, i will saturate the flanges with protek clp.

    also, when in a pinch, i have sometimes taken the jack, holding the wippen (inside the piano) and wiggled the jack a little forcefully back/forth and sideways in order to compress the bushing cloth enough to free it up for at least a while but only if the customer agreed to have the entire set worked on at a later time in the near future.

    when re-pinning, i always make sure to go up 2 sizes in center pins so i can remove enough material.

    When encountering issues like this with pianos from that part of the world, i make sure to examine all flanges (hammer, jack, wippen, damper, repetition lever), and educate the customer so they understand that while some flanges are operating just fine now, they may start acting out later on.

    Happy New Year,

    Peter

    Janssen Piano Services, 678 416 8055



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    Peter Janssen
    Fort Myers FL
    (678) 416-8055
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  • 3.  RE: Samick SIG 50

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-02-2024 16:21
    Daniel.

    This has been a problem for Samack made pianos for nearly 2 decades. Some techs have had good results with repinning, and some with adding a lubricant. But I believe that the problem is in the bushing cloth, similar to the old Steinway verdigris problem.

    In other words, the only real, long lasting solution is to replace the parts. In one piano I worked in I replaced the back action and h/s/f. In your case, since you’re having problems with the jacks, I would replace the wippens. Unfortunately, it’s going to cost a lot of money. But in your case, since it has a disc installed, it might be worth it.

    Wim
    Sent from my iPhone




  • 4.  RE: Samick SIG 50

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-02-2024 20:04

    Some years ago, I had a Korean action that had many sluggish hammer flanges.  I experimented with different solutions.  I tried Protek, water/alcohol solution, a Zapper (remember those?), using a heat gun, and then reaming/repinning.  The last option was the only thing that proved itself.  Everything else worked for a while, but then the flanges would seize again.  If you have high humidity, even for a short time, that will cause the flange felt to inflate, and you'll have sticking.  If the manufacturer doesn't pre-shrink the felt, it will leave the factory working well, but if there's moisture intrusion the felt will swell, and continue until you ream out the excess felt from the bushings and repin.  Aside from the bushings, if you have center pins that are plated, the plating can flake off, which will dig into the felt and cause problems.  Or glue saturation in the felt will cause sticking when moisture leaches out some of the glue.  Often you can see dark rings on the center pins when you remove them, showing the glue where the bushings were rubbing against the pins.  Unfortunately, there's no free lunch here.  The only lasting cure is reaming or replacement of the flange felt or replace the parts.  And, if you get factory parts, who's to know if you're just repeating the same problem all over again!  Sadly, these problems often occur in pianos that are owned by  institutions, churches or families that can't afford to have expensive repairs done.



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    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
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  • 5.  RE: Samick SIG 50

    Posted 01-03-2024 04:02
    Hi Dan,

    I have had success using the household cleaner Fantastic in the same situation. Apply it like you would Protek. The problem has not come back on the pianos I have used this on. 

    My suggestion, try it on one wippen on all tight centers and/or one tight hammer flange, to prove to yourself that it works. The Fantastic will increase the friction at first but in 24 hours or less it will work its magic. Some parts will swing more freely then what is ideal, but hey, the piano is playable. Those parts can now be pinned to the desired friction level if you want.

    Doug Mahard
    CT Chapter 





  • 6.  RE: Samick SIG 50

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-04-2024 02:32

    Daniel,

    Under a microscope the flange pins from sticking parts show a glue residue.  I believe that this is from a manufacturing technique that Samick (and possibly Young Chang) used.  Lubrication will  only temporarily relieve the problem.  Repinning without reaming the bushing slightly might allow the residual glue to re-infect the flange.  Usually this problem resolves if you lightly ream the bushing and repin with an appropriate new pin.

    Usually this problem gets worse with playing, presumably because the glue warms up and migrates.

    Remove a few pins and examine with a good magnifying glass (I recommend an inexpensive 10X: https://www.amazon.com/Othmro-Magnifier-Diameter-Foldable-Magnifying/dp/B07X6T781D/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=10x%2Bmini%2Bmagnifying%2Bloupe&qid=1704353452&sr=8-8&th=1).  The glue might show as white, clear or blue gum on the pin.



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    Blaine Hebert RPT
    Duarte CA
    (626) 390-0512
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  • 7.  RE: Samick SIG 50

    Member
    Posted 01-04-2024 08:49

    Paul and Blaine are right about this issue. The problem is a night mare that seems to lurk in the shadow. A few hammers here a few hammers there and you can end up with multiple call backs. There are a number of posts about the issue . The customer does not want to believe that their piano has the problem requiring several hours of labor to ream flanges and re-pin. The friction generated by playing heats up the felt and glue and gums up the works. It is not the same as the green verdigris found in many older Steinways due to the practice of water/moisture proofing wooden parts by boiling in paraffin. I have encountered the issue in many Church owned instruments as well as residential mostly in Samicks and YC products. Poor air conditioning and high humidity is a double whammy here in SC 



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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Samick SIG 50

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-04-2024 09:16
    This was the reason for my post. The customer is caught between a rock and hard place. They bought the piano because of the price. Now, 10 - 15 years later they find out that the reason for the sticking keys is a manufacturing defect, but because the warrantee is over, there is nothing that can be done, short of replacing all the action parts. It's either that, or a brand new piano. 

    I don't have an answer. Just pointing out the reality of situation. 



    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Samick SIG 50

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-04-2024 10:58

    So...is the problem caused because the factory used a heat-activated glue on the bushing cloth?  (And they <what?> applied too much heat?

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Samick SIG 50

    Member
    Posted 01-04-2024 12:03

    Wim .. was this ever under warranty claims like the crumbling action projects ? I would like to find something in writing from the company that states the problem and the warranty claim process- that is if there ever was one. When I tell customers what it is they usually go ballistic thinking I am trying to upcharge them . There are the customers that say it didnt have the problem before you worked on it in cases when you tuned the piano but then they play it, heat up the action centers and you get a call back. 



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    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
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    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Samick SIG 50

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-04-2024 12:48

    I suppose you could talk to Veronica aka Jane Jones at Samick, as she's been their tech support person for ages. Roger Jolly worked for them for quite a while too & I'm sure he knows. That said piano companies don't generally like to publicize warranty problems.

    Some manufacturers put the responsibility for warranty repairs on the dealer, so customer satisfaction will vary depending on their local dealer.

    Don Mannino developed his special reamers when was Young Chang's tech guy (ages ago), so the problem has been a feature of Korean made pianos for a long time.

    Reaming & repinning entire sets is the only sure fire repair.



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    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
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    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Samick SIG 50

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-04-2024 13:59

    All you need to do is tell the client to Google "Korean piano pinning problems" or similar and they will quickly find out that their piano ain't the only one. 

    That's hiw I solved the problem with Yamaha spring cords when she thought I was trying to pull the wool over her eyes and make money. Actually, her husband who was listening in the background did it for me. He walked in and said: "He's telling the truth, it's a problem..."

    That's one good use of the internet. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Samick SIG 50

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-04-2024 14:00
    This can be a problem in many different brands of pianos, it is not exclusive to Samick or Young Chang - I have had it happen on Steinway pianos and new Renner action parts I have installed myself!  I developed the repinning broaches because when I was rebuilding regularly in the 1980s I was looking for a fast and reliable way to repin NEW action parts!

    Just give the customer an estimate for the repinning job and don't take it on yourself and try to force the issue on the warranty.  Beating one's head on the wall over something like this is not productive.  Any products with a warranty can have issues after the warranty expires - and that's just the way it is!  When the warranty is over, it doesn't matter if the problem had no external cause.  Once the repinning is done and the action is working well, the issue will be resolved and the customer will at least be happy with you and your good service.  

    Think about it, with your approach of wanting the manufacturer to take responsibility, shouldn't we all be hassling Steinway New York for using Mutton Tallow in their action centers in the 1930s?

    The real issue with these issues where the parts tighten up with use is usually unstable cloth in the flange.  The cloth was bunched up in the hole during installation then wet sized in the factory so that it working perfectly, but with use and time and humidity cycles the wool fibers shift around and start to bind.  The only reliable solution to this is to ream and repin.

    If you are seeing a whitish ring on the pin when you punch it out, that can indicate that the glue was water soluble and has soaked through to the pin.  The reaming process seems to take care of this as well, although I confess I have never had it in a piano that I continued to service for 15 years to be totally sure.  I've only seen this a few times, and to my knowledge the problem never recurred  - even in one I did that was being played regularly by a player system in a hotel lounge.

    If the action centers have been lubricated you could have more to deal with because the bushings will be kind of slimy.  I find that the broaches clog up quickly with the lubricant and need to be cleaned multiple times when reaming a full set. I keep some alcohol nearby and a rag to clean the broach every few parts.  This is one reason I really dislike lubricants in actions - they make the parts slippery, but don't actually address the issue of tightness.

    Don Mannino



    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Samick SIG 50

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-04-2024 14:57

    Thank you Dan for an intelligent and practical response.  Some of these modern wonder glues and lubricants are not so wonderful after all.

    I have been old Journal articles where Pratt Read's manufacture is described in detail.  Parts assembly involved using quality cloth and hot glue to bush 

    the parts, then inserting long warmed rods to the bushed parts, then inserting those assemblies into ovens to dry.  This process was normally repeated

    3 times.  Then the assembled parts were further checked during final assembly. Quality bushing clothing and center pins is a must.  Bty,  love the

    Mannino broaches.  



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    Parker Leigh RPT
    Winchester VA
    (540) 722-3865
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    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Samick SIG 50

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-04-2024 17:47

    Wim,

    Your description of the conundrum faced by the client is spot on. To it, I would add one of the ten points from "The Gospel According to Norman (Neblett), as Preached to His Disciple, Rick (Baldassin)." 

    "Do not let the client's problem become your problem."

    Thank you for this pearl of wisdom, Norm (and Rick)!

    Alan



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    Alan Eder, RPT
    Herb Alpert School of Music
    California Institute of the Arts
    Valencia, CA
    661.904.6483
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    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Samick SIG 50

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-04-2024 19:37

    I will second that one! 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



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    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
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    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: Samick SIG 50

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-05-2024 02:03

    I have always also been suspicious that these Samick Kohler/Campbell Samicks, and others, with this issue may also be something in the glue/felt that is actually reacting to, and "etching", the plating on plated center pins. I have never use a microscope but have used optivisors. I seem to recall actually seeing pitting of the plating. Also player systems are more problematic as the more playing, the more the friction heats up the pin. This also happens more with students that practice 3 - 5 hours a day.

    MOSTLY FOR NEWER TECHS who have not really encountered this problem yet: If you come to one of these Samicks, or others, and notice a few sluggish grand hammers be forewarned! If you pull the grand action to deal with these, be very careful not to move any other hammers out of their normal path of movement as doing this will likely cause them to become sluggish and seize up. If you do move other hammers out of their normal travel path, do it before the tuning and not after the tuning or you may very well get a call back. If before tuning, your service call will likely be extended. If after, you may get a call back

    I always inform the customer of this condition but couch it as Good News and Bad News. Good news is that they have a very nice piano and that bad news is that it has a "condition" that is common with these brands and vintage, and that notes may randomly become sluggish of seize up. And, that we will see how it goes under their normal playing patterns. Protek often solves this problem under light to medium playing environments. Mark any notes that you treat with protek.

    I also know a Tech that did an alcohol/water treatment on all grand hammer centers. Everything seized up and stayed that way. Thus, a complete re-pin was required. Alcohol/water treatment for these pianos is NOT recommended.



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    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
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  • 18.  RE: Samick SIG 50

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-05-2024 13:09
    Tremaine,
    I had that happen with Yamaha as well the Korean brands. The first thing I would do before moving
    the hammers was to put Pro-tek on all the shank flanges. I could then move them without any seizing up.
    John



    Original Message