Pianotech

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Samick

  • 1.  Samick

    Posted 30 days ago
    We have a customer who has a Samick G185.
    The first wound bass strings before the break keep on breaking and we have tried different combinations of copper and steel but nothing helps.
    Is there a particular problem with this model and can you give us the specs for these The notes are B3,C3,C#3, and D3
    thankyou

    ------------------------------
    Raymond Cugnolio
    owner
    Pretoria
    27-82-342-4668
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Samick

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 30 days ago
    I suggest you contact a string maker/rescaler, for example Heller, who with the proper measurements can create a set of bass strings that won't break (at proper tension) and also sound great. Tremaine Parsons can also help you with the rescaling (although he doesn't wind bass strings).

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    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Samick

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 30 days ago
    I used to work for the Samick dealer in the late '80's and 90's.  I don't recall any problems with the bass strings on any of their models.  I'll assume this piano isn't in a church or other public venue where questionable people are banging on it.  Where did you get your replacement strings?  When did the breakage begin?  Where are they breaking, ie., near the agraffe, tuning pin, bridge or ?  Did they break during tuning or sometime later?  For sure you'll want to measure the scale and have it analyzed, as well as the strings you're putting on there and see how close to the breaking point they're designed for.  Things don't seem to add up from what you're describing here.

    ------------------------------
    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Samick

    Member
    Posted 30 days ago
    Sounds rather strange they are successive notes. Maybe someone put the wrong strings on after the originals broke and there is a miss-match. I have seen clusters of strings broken mainly in uprights in churches where gospel music is played and the sustain pedal is jammed down. I have also seen several strings in a row where the bass strings failed at the hitch pin due to high humidity excess moisture on the felt at the tail end.  as asked previously where are breaks and how soon after install are the breaking ? who is making your strings ?

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Samick

    Member
    Posted 23 days ago
    Where did you get your replacement strings? Made them in-house.
    When did the breakage begin? C3 After a Pitch Raise from 435 to 440; B2, C3, C#3, D3 during the final tuning 2x weeks later.
    Where are they breaking, ie., near the agraffe, tuning pin, bridge or ? They broke by the tuning pins.
    Did they break during tuning or sometime later? During tuning

    ------------------------------
    Malcolm Lunt
    7th-year apprentice (Raymond Cugnolio)
    5th-year fulltime tuner technician
    Pretoria, South Africa
    IG: @that_autistic_piano_guy
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Samick

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 30 days ago
    I don't think the problem is with the piano. In most instances where the same strings break on a piano is because the player is very heavy handed. Sometimes reducing blow distance and reducing keydip will help. But most of the time teaching the piano player how to play, instead of pound, the piano is the only solution. 






  • 7.  RE: Samick

    Posted 30 days ago
    Thanks for the advice but let me further elaborate.
    This piano was in a private home and had not been played much or serviced in years.
    When we got to the piano it was sitting at A=435. One string broke while doing a pitch raise.
    We make our own strings... South Africa is far from everything!
    We did an evaluation as well and the piano needed quite a bit of action work, regulation, servicing, lubricating and voicing. However the client said he does not have money and only wants the string replaced.
    We made quite a few subsequent trips and every time one or other of these notes would break a string. As far as we can tell these where the original strings supplied by Samick. We checked the seating and the angle from the afgraffe. We tried various adjustments to both copper size and steel but with no joy.
    It is actually very obvious to feel the string getting to its maximum tension as you get to its correct pitch and then .... bang!
    I

    ------------------------------
    Raymond Cugnolio
    owner
    Pretoria
    27-82-342-4668
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Samick

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 30 days ago
    Hi Raymond, you definitely should take careful measurements of the string lengths and use software (or spreadsheets) such Tremaine Parsons' Pscale (https://www.goptools.com/index.htm) to calculate string specifications that won't entail extremely high tension that approaches/exceeds the strings' bearing point. And, of course, make the strings yourself. Just because your samples "seem" to be the same as the Samick originals doesn't mean they're appropriate.

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Draine RPT
    Billerica MA
    (978) 663-9690
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Samick

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 30 days ago
    If strings are breaking just getting them up to pitch, you might have the wrong size string. Next time go up one gauge.

    Often times customers tell us they don’t have the money for the work you want to do. Explain that the problems they are having is because you’re not doing what is necessary work to take care of the problems.

    Wim.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 10.  RE: Samick

    Member
    Posted 30 days ago
    I doubt the string scales are in the Travis stringing guide but I would be some of the US string makers may be able to tell you what should be there. If you are working from what was there you are repeating the same errors. If the hammers are way off in regulation, the strike points flat, heavy groves in the felt, the player is a pounder and likes to keep the sustain pedal down strings will break. However if you are feeling an imminent break while tuning something tells me there is a mismatch. Probably the best thing to do is get the specs for that model or at least analyze the stringing with software. It sounds like the piano needs to have many things done and it will never be right until they are done. Give the customer a list and a price for the work including a full set of wound strings from Heller, Mapes, Arledgre Doing call backs or bandaid fixes will not be worth it.

    ------------------------------
    James Kelly
    Owner- Fur Elise Piano Service
    Pawleys Island SC
    (843) 325-4357
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Samick

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 30 days ago
    I'm curious.  What are the specs you have been using in making these strings?  -- speaking length, core diameter and total diameter with wrap?

    ------------------------------
    Floyd Gadd RPT
    Regina SK
    (306) 502-9103
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Samick

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 30 days ago
    Hi Raymond,
    Phone calls and shipping are cheap, I'm on the other side of the world from Heller and have had great success there. He will tell you the specs he needs and manufacture strings for you that will not break. You can save money by just replacing the problem notes.
    With all due respect I would not 'go up a gauge' I'm not sure what that means with bass strings but you will simply have more tension and likely not change the breaking percentage. Only way to go
    Fenton

    ------------------------------
    Fenton Murray, RPT

    Fenton
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Samick

    Posted 29 days ago
    Hi all,
    Thanks for all the advice.
    I will take the measurements of the strings and contact Heller.



    ------------------------------
    Raymond Cugnolio
    owner
    Pretoria
    27-82-342-4668
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Samick

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 29 days ago
    Raising bass string core wire 1/2 gauge size will lower Break % 2 or 3 points, tension will essentially stay the same, and Inharmonicity will go up a bit. Post the speaking lengths and note numbers and I'll take a look.

    I don't see that you have indicated where the strings are breaking. Could there be defective agraffes (off the wall speculation)?

    Also what are you using for core wire? Roslau? It almost sounds like you may have some stainless steel core wire which has a much lower breaking point.

    ------------------------------
    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Samick

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 27 days ago
    I am really happy to see Tremaine weighing in here. His work and the tools he has developed have helped me significantly in the realm of scale evaluation.

    ------------------------------
    Floyd Gadd RPT
    Regina SK
    (306) 502-9103
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Samick

    Member
    Posted 23 days ago
    From the one original that I have in my possession:
    B2
    core = 0.88mm
    core + copper (total diameter with wrap) = 1.44mm
    eye to copper = 17.25mm
    copper length = 1085mm

    C3 (core = 0.88) used the same core and wrapping, just shorter.
    D3 core = 0.85 with core + copper = 1.35mm

    Speaking lengths are not recorded, only core + copper and the core itself - I was taught by a string maker this way, so please don't judge Raymond or me.
    We get physical samples so the copper lengths are just copied from the sample. Unless we measure at the piano from other strings, as below.


    Other notes from Gazelle:

    C3:
    Eye to copper = 171mm
    Copper length = 1062mm
    Steel = 87
    Copper = 135
    Steel & copper As per sample

    D3:
    Eye to copper = 149mm
    Copper length = 1017mm
    Steel = 87
    Copper = 144

    C#3 also broke - no measurements with me or on Gazelle

    ------------------------------
    Malcolm Lunt
    7th-year apprentice (Raymond Cugnolio)
    5th-year fulltime tuner technician
    Pretoria, South Africa
    IG: @that_autistic_piano_guy
    ------------------------------



  • 17.  RE: Samick

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 23 days ago
    For your B2. If we take you length of copper and add 20mm of exposed core we get an approximate  speaking length of 1125mm
    Core or .875mm (15) and a Total OD if 1.44mm gives a break% of 69% which is high <=66%). (Tension 93 Kg)
    If we increase the core by half gauge sizes and keep the OD at 1.44mm we get
    .900mm = Break % of 65% (Tension 93 Kg)
    .925mm = Break % of 62% (Tension 93 Kg)
    .950mm = Break % of 59% (Tension 94 Kg)
    .975mm = Break % of 56% (Tension 94 Kg)
    I would go with a core of .950 or .975
    On D3 .875 core with 1.44 OD give you a Break % of 86% Way too high!  A core of 1.050 would reduce Break % to 61%
    You need a string scale computer program if you are making strings for the trade. You can get started with a free one here:
    https://github.com/natefoss/scaleripper (Windows)
    And of course I sell a program in both Decimal and Metric versions

    ------------------------------
    Tremaine Parsons RPT
    Georgetown CA
    (530) 333-9299
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Samick

    Member
    Posted 23 days ago
      |   view attached
    For reference, the serial number found is #G 005797
    And if I remember correctly, the piano length is 6'1" / 184cm

    ------------------------------
    Malcolm Lunt
    7th-year apprentice (Raymond Cugnolio)
    5th-year fulltime tuner technician
    Pretoria, South Africa
    IG: @that_autistic_piano_guy
    ------------------------------