Pianotech

Expand all | Collapse all

Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

  • 1.  Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Member
    Posted 17 days ago

    Hello All,

    I'm curious about what everyone's thoughts are on piano rebuilds with "restored" soundboards and "restored" pinblocks.  I may be inspecting a Steinway soon that contains a filled and re-lacquered soundboard and a "pinblock restored with new material."  I'm not entirely sure what that means (pinblock restored with new material) and hope to find out by asking the rebuilder, but my question is more general.

    Assuming you were acquiring a piano with a restored soundboard and pinblock from 1939, and they all appeared to be in good working order (soundboard produced good tone and sustain, has crown and downbearing; pinblock has good tuning pin tightness and feel), what are the downsides to such an instrument.  I'm curious if anyone has any insights into how a well restored soundboard and pinblock might compare to an instrument with a new soundboard and pinblock.  Are there longevity issues or stability issues that wouldn't be immediately observable

    Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

    Best,

    Luke



    ------------------------------
    Luke Taylor
    Duarte CA
    (310) 386-7014
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Posted 17 days ago
    From my limited experience it's really important simply to take a tuning hammer with you and see how it feels.

    Are the pins really terribly tight? 

    Are they loose? Do they settle comfortably? Do they wobble?

    I've experienced rebuilds which really I wouldn't say a thank-you for and also new instruments of European manufacture which I wouldn't want to recommend to a friend or even an enemy, if such were to ask my advice.

    In my opinion it's how the instrument feels now, and from that how you feel that it will develop over the coming decade, and a further factor is the restringing that has taken place and whether to the appropriate scaling. I'm familiar with how Model Ms behave with their inharmonicity and get them to sound good, but I did one to my normal formula the other day the inharmonicity of which was very different to the norm.

    The important thing about Steinways is a degree of largely knowing what you're going to get when you come to them, either as player or a technician. If it's outside those bounds, I'd recommend looking for another.

    Best wishes

    David P


    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 3.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 17 days ago
    Luke

    In my opinion, there is no such thing as a "restored" soundboard or pin block. A soundboard has either been repaired and refinished, or it's been replaced. A pin block is either original, restrung with larger pins and/or had CA treatment, or it's been replaced. 

    As far as how good they are all depends on the quality of work, and how long ago the work was done. A 1939 piano that had the pinblock and soundboard replaced 40 years ago, if the work was done right, is good to go for another 40 years. If it was done 10 years ago, again, done right, will have another 60 years of life. 

    Wim





  • 4.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Posted 15 days ago

    Wim stated: "A pin block is either original, restrung with larger pins and/or had CA treatment, or it's been replaced."

    OR, the pinblock has been plugged and redrilled OR the pinblock has had tuning pin fields replaced and then drilled. If the original block was still well glued, doweled, screwed and/or morticed in place, and of course the work was of very good quality, these methods can yield a like-new pinblock.

    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505



    ------------------------------
    Terry Farrell
    Farrell Piano Service, Inc.
    Brandon, Florida
    terry@farrellpiano.com
    813-684-3505
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 17 days ago
    So the soundboard question has been hotly debated for decades... It seems like a reasonable middle ground consensus might go like this: 
    - Old soundboards do not sound quite like new soundboards, even if you shim, fill, repair, epoxy treat, or otherwise do things to them. 
    - The sound of an old soundboard that is structurally sound and has adequate downbearing, is often quite good. It's usually a more still, sweet sound without quite as much bloom or power, but some people may even prefer it. 
    - The sound of an old soundboard that is not structurally sound, or doesn't have adequate downbearing, is just bad. 
    - Good spruce is hard to come by and getting harder by the decade, so one can make an argument that it's more ethical to retain the original board if it can meet the customer's needs.
    As in inspector I would check the downbearing in all sections. Just to be safe I'd also use a stretched string to make sure there was still _some_ crown in the board. If not, and some other means were taken to restore downbearing, it might still sound ok but I think the buyer should be aware of it... Especially if there's reverse crown it _might_ indicate future tuning stability problems. Or not.
    I'd also check (with the seller's permission) the nose bolts, to make sure downbearing wasn't restored via the dirty trick of simply cranking them down and flexing the plate.






  • 6.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 16 days ago

    It's my understanding that in Europe they remove, dismantle and restore soundboards, and use pinblock inserts in the original carcass (typically). If anyone has alternate info on that I'm all ears. I've seen some pretty nice jobs that way. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 16 days ago

    That certainly makes a lot of sense, given how complex the flange fitting is for some European grand pinblocks!

    Jim Geiger once told me he has done the procedure you described with soundboards, i.e. remove and reconstruct it using the original wood (and presumably a little bit of new wood where needed).  Including redoing the compression-induced crowning.  So it's definitely "a thing", but I believe very rare among US rebuilders.



    ------------------------------
    Nathan Monteleone RPT
    Fort Worth TX
    (817) 675-9494
    nbmont@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Posted 16 days ago

    This is really a "What can you afford"question.

    But i'll share some helpful principles of good soundboard making. The strength to weight ratio and size is KING. The compression soundboard when installed and made properly is the best performing soundboard for the modern piano. The compression soundboard maximizes the strength to weight ratio when design and made properly. It uses to full effect the hygroscopic nature of wood for strength. The rib scale takes advantage of the panel stiffness by using a lower height profile which translates into maximum projection of tone. Also a properly installed compression board uses tension along the grain. So compression across the grain and tension along the grain. The soundboard at that point is equal to a tight skin on a drum. Notice when drum heads tear, no one talks about restoring those, just replace. Again showing it's just a cost factor for piano soundboards.

    All other soundboard design ideas make compromises on the basic concepts of strength, weight, size, and projection.

    e.g. 

    Cutoff bars takes away size. And shortens ribs =loss of projection.

    Ribs to large takes adds weight and takes away projection.

    Also, ribs too tall in the case of rib crowned soundboards takes away projection. Although this system is also used with cutoff bars as well.

    With soundboards that are old, a lot of the internal forces are gone as well as the wood is fatiged which is not good in itself.

    The idea that old wood is better than new wood, is a myth and a mistaken premise. There is a video of a blind test with violinists playing old violins and new ones. I believe the top two were a Strad and New maker (can't remember his name). BTW, their is no such thing as a true Strad as they have all been refitted and worked on by many violin restorers. So we dont really know what they originally sounded like. So in the blind the Strad that co-won was really a testament to last tech that worked on it.

    So with piano soundboards wood selection is the key factor. All manufactureres preferred a Red Spruce which has great tonal qualities as their number one choice. Sitka was a forced second choice because of government regulations which created a lack of supply. They are still out there and plentiful you just can't use it. And because of current forestry practices, a fire is what ends up destroying them, not harvesting. In Europe, they are very concientious of fires and the old growth forest are manage with pretty good harvesting guidelines for instrument makers over the lumber trade. There's nothing as dissapointing as hearing about an old growth spruce tree that was made into 2x4's.

    So with repaired and restored boards the two main issues is wood fatigue and loss of compression and tension and thus crown too. They can still sound good, but its not a sound that ultimately inspires, especially after playing a really good new one. I've played on hundreds of pianos over the years,same models too, but only 5 pianos stand out as better than all those others.  It's similar to, and reminds me of my first vehicle, a 66 chevy pick up truck. I thought that was the greatest, until i drove a Ferrari. Because i follow the basic principles, i can provide my clients Ferrari's, but there is nothing wrong with an old pick up truck if thats all person can afford.

    In the end we are really in the people business, not the piano business. So that is what determines the course of action to take to make people happy.

    -chris



    ------------------------------
    Chernobieff Piano Restorations

    Inertia Touch Wave(ITW) The most advanced silky smooth actions.

    Engineered Hygroscopic Soundboards. The strongest and lightest boards made today for acoustic projection, richness and warmth.

    865-986-7720 (text only please)
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Posted 16 days ago
    Chris - with respect we should be in the music business, not the people business nor the piano business. Our focus should be what enables the creation of the most emotional content of music.

    Of course I appreciate that you didn't mean it that way, but it's a shift of perspective which we need to find in order to arrest the decline of appreciation of classical music. It's in that spirit that I make comments which might possibly grate, but are from a perspective of seeing increasingly white haired audiences and declining numbers on this side of the pond.

    On the subject of soundboards, does the sound, like a violin, improve with playing and maintenance of good tuning? Does the wood know where it likes to be vibrating the more it vibrates well? Does the legend that a frequently played violin sounds better than a neglected one freshly played hold true?

    Best wishes

    David P


    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 10.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 15 days ago

    Missed this post!  This is my understanding as well!



    ------------------------------
    Tom Dowell
    Hulbert Piano
    tom@hulbertpiano.com
    262-221-0792
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Posted 16 days ago
    Hi Nathan, I always enjoy your posts.
    I cannot envision how you would check the nose bolts 
    to make sure downbearing wasn't restored via the dirty trick of simply cranking them down and flexing the plate.
    Other than loosening the nut and observing a rising plate, is that what you mean, while under tension?
    I've never tried to lower a plate with nose bolts, but I've certainly used them to raise it a bit, all before stringing. Lowering done at the perimeter, bearing can be had via other options thru much of the scale.
    Fenton





  • 12.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 15 days ago
    Thanks, Fenton :)

    Good clarification, I meant loosening the nut and watching for the plate to rise significantly.  I.e. you're checking the position of the nose bolts but not actually touching them.

    Does anyone feel that doing this under tension is a bad idea?  I figure one nut at a time, temporarily, shouldn't risk anything...





  • 13.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 15 days ago

    Nathan,

    The "problem" is that it does not definitively tell you anything. I have long maintained that one cannot get a TRUE picture of the crown/downbearing relationship in a strung piano. There are too many factors that can deceive me into thinking a certain way, only to find out later upon teardown...Oops!...that wasn't the situation at all...it was something different. 

    The only situation I am pretty comfortable diagnosing ABSOLUTELY is when there is truly excessive DB on an otherwise crowned board that is now "oil canning" the board under the bridge, but not elsewhere. IOW I find negative crown under the bridge but positive crown on either side of it. And when I do find this I have a short list of corroborative symptoms to further confirm the situation. If they all agree, I am confident of my diagnosis. 

    But that's just me. I've heard others say they can diagnose all kinds of DB issues in a strung piano. They are above my pay grade.

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 14 days ago

    Peter,

    Is the gist of the problem, that once the board is loaded we can't tell how much it flexed under string tension?  If so -- and this is an honest question -- why do we care?  For example, are there likely problems that come from a board that is too compliant (say the thing dropped a good 1/4" at the center of the tenor bridge once strung up), or too stiff?



    ------------------------------
    Nathan Monteleone RPT
    Fort Worth TX
    (817) 675-9494
    nbmont@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 13 days ago

    Nathan,

    I guess I would answer yes, in that important factors become "invisible" once the piano is strung.  Since the crown/downbearing is a "relationship" that ideally should be self-adjusting with changes in humidity, too much or too little on either side (or unevenly distributed) can cause problems (if excessive). 

    AFAIC I don't care, unless the piano is exhibiting symptoms that are bothersome. If it is, I'll start investigating, but I have to admit that it's not much different from trying to diagnose a human ailment deep inside. Symptoms don't always tell the whole story. (No piano MRI's available as yet). 

    So, in a nutshell, I don't believe that a one hour inspection can uncover anything other than a VERY SERIOUS downbearing issue...accurately.  But again, I'm willing to be proven wrong. The best I might be able to say is: "I THINK there may be a DB issue here, but I cannot prove it without dismantling it. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor 



    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 13 days ago
    Thanks for explaining Peter! I certainly agree with the bottom line, there's only so much we can tell about the overall health of the belly in an inspection. FWIW I don't have a lot of experience with full rebuilds, so I take your word for it about the surprises one encounters:). Ultimate I think your medical analogy is a good one to keep in mind when inspecting -- we can only look for surface symptoms that might indicate an underlying problem.





  • 17.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Posted 15 days ago
    I would worry that I would not be able to bring it back down under tension, perhaps even if not under tension. 





  • 18.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 14 days ago

    Good point.  I have to confess I've never actually tried it on a piano that DID have the nose bolts/nuts cranked down improperly.  If they're actually set correctly the nut will spin free after a half turn or so.  I.e. it's very easy to retighten to exactly where it was.



    ------------------------------
    Nathan Monteleone RPT
    Fort Worth TX
    (817) 675-9494
    nbmont@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 15 days ago

    My understanding from speaking with a European rebuilder, is that to sell a rebuilt piano as that brand (to sell a rebuilt Steinway as a "Steinway"), European Union law requires that the soundboard and pin block be original.  I did some light searching on this and couldn't find a solid document to back this, but that was how it was explained to me.  So, in this case, the rebuilders did everything they can to repair and work with the original board, but they couldn't replace it.  Likewise, with the pin block, they can rout out the pin field and replace that wood to repair the block, but taking the whole thing out and putting a new one in is off the table.  So if this piano was rebuilt in the EU, it might explain why they used the word "restored".

    In the few examples I've seen locally, pianos rebuilt with this approach performed exceptionally well. I'd love to hear from others who have encountered similar-or different-results.

    Definitely talk to the rebuilder if possible.  We all know that terms like rebuild/restore/refurbish are thrown around very loosely with pianos, and have very different definitions to different people.



    ------------------------------
    Tom Dowell
    Hulbert Piano
    tom@hulbertpiano.com
    262-221-0792
    ------------------------------



  • 20.  RE: Thoughts on old restored soundboards and pinblocks

    Posted 13 days ago
    Apologies for coming back on this but the bottom line is when tuning does it feel like a Steinway and when being played does it sound like a Steinway?

    Personally I have experienced rebuilt instruments in the UK rebuilt in the past 20 years and have been reminded as a result that we are at least one or two generations since piano people in the UK had factory experience in UK piano manufacturing. 

    Do the pins in the block feel as they should and the strings tune as they should? Does it sound like it should?

    If the answer is doubtful on either, then there are other fish in the sea.

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594