Pianotech

Yes, I try to do this. Some pins tend to be way more mushy than others. On some particular pins, you just can't get rid of the mush no matter what you do. Resetting the foot remains just as mushy. In these case, do you just do what you can to get it the unison and then move on?

------------------------------
Andrew Young
San Diego CA
------------------------------

Yes, I try to do this. Some pins tend to be way more mushy than others. On some particular pins, you just can't get rid of the mush no matter what you do. Resetting the foot remains just as mushy. In these case, do you just do what you can to get it the unison and then move on?

------------------------------
Andrew Young
San Diego CA
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 11-13-2025 17:05
From: Wim Blees
Subject: Tuning instability - advice from the veterans

Hi Andrew

In addition to setting the string by using test blows, you also need to set the pin. After achieving a good unison, wiggle the tuning hammer while it's on the pin. Just move it back and forth a little. That takes the tension off the pin, and will stabilize it.

Wim.
Sent from my iPhone

Hi Andrew:

Here are a few things I would try.  First, make sure the windows and doors are shut while you're tuning.  If there's any air blowing around the piano, it could drift.  No ceiling fans either.  As far as using the tuning lever, I try to put the lever as close to parallel to the string as possible.  Some may disagree, but I was given this advice when I first started tuning, and it has served me well, even though it might be un-ergonomic.  Especially where the piano has agraffes.  I use a 2:00 position in the treble area.

As a new tuner, the technique to master is to make your movement of the tuning pin as small as possible, and yet actually turn the pin in the pinblock.  Yes, also, as Wim suggests, test the pitch by nudging the lever a bit in either direction to see if there's a tendency to drift sharp or flat.  When you have a very tight pin, this is even more challenging because the pin will easily twist and yet not move in the pinblock.  Having a very light and stiff tuning hammer helps because you can feel it move.  I use a Charles Faulk, but the Fujan hammer is also quite popular.  Yeah, kinda pricy, but (don't repeat me here) you can find Chynese knockoffs on Fl(eabay) that are much cheaper but do work.  As someone I read long ago, make the last tiny bit of pressure to the upside to create stability.  If you push the lever flat to get in tune, the section of wire that is connected to the tuning pin will be flatter than the rest of the string.  Then later the wire can move and affect the tuning.  If your last move is to the upside, the wire will be more equally tensioned everywhere.  

Over time you'll figure things out.  Try various techniques and see what works.  I'm sure there will be others who will suggest their tips and tricks.  If you have a good tuning app/ETD, it will help you see what you're doing.  I use Pianoscope.

Good luck.

Paul

Hi Andrew:

Here are a few things I would try.  First, make sure the windows and doors are shut while you're tuning.  If there's any air blowing around the piano, it could drift.  No ceiling fans either.  As far as using the tuning lever, I try to put the lever as close to parallel to the string as possible.  Some may disagree, but I was given this advice when I first started tuning, and it has served me well, even though it might be un-ergonomic.  Especially where the piano has agraffes.  I use a 2:00 position in the treble area.

As a new tuner, the technique to master is to make your movement of the tuning pin as small as possible, and yet actually turn the pin in the pinblock.  Yes, also, as Wim suggests, test the pitch by nudging the lever a bit in either direction to see if there's a tendency to drift sharp or flat.  When you have a very tight pin, this is even more challenging because the pin will easily twist and yet not move in the pinblock.  Having a very light and stiff tuning hammer helps because you can feel it move.  I use a Charles Faulk, but the Fujan hammer is also quite popular.  Yeah, kinda pricy, but (don't repeat me here) you can find Chynese knockoffs on Fl(eabay) that are much cheaper but do work.  As someone I read long ago, make the last tiny bit of pressure to the upside to create stability.  If you push the lever flat to get in tune, the section of wire that is connected to the tuning pin will be flatter than the rest of the string.  Then later the wire can move and affect the tuning.  If your last move is to the upside, the wire will be more equally tensioned everywhere.  

Over time you'll figure things out.  Try various techniques and see what works.  I'm sure there will be others who will suggest their tips and tricks.  If you have a good tuning app/ETD, it will help you see what you're doing.  I use Pianoscope.

Good luck.

Paul

All the strings of the unison have moved. Might I be underestimating how much even a tiny bit of temp and humidity can change the pitch?

All the strings of the unison have moved. Might I be underestimating how much even a tiny bit of temp and humidity can change the pitch?

All the strings of the unison have moved. Might I be underestimating how much even a tiny bit of temp and humidity can change the pitch?

Hi Andrew:

Here are a few things I would try.  First, make sure the windows and doors are shut while you're tuning.  If there's any air blowing around the piano, it could drift.  No ceiling fans either.  As far as using the tuning lever, I try to put the lever as close to parallel to the string as possible.  Some may disagree, but I was given this advice when I first started tuning, and it has served me well, even though it might be un-ergonomic.  Especially where the piano has agraffes.  I use a 2:00 position in the treble area.

As a new tuner, the technique to master is to make your movement of the tuning pin as small as possible, and yet actually turn the pin in the pinblock.  Yes, also, as Wim suggests, test the pitch by nudging the lever a bit in either direction to see if there's a tendency to drift sharp or flat.  When you have a very tight pin, this is even more challenging because the pin will easily twist and yet not move in the pinblock.  Having a very light and stiff tuning hammer helps because you can feel it move.  I use a Charles Faulk, but the Fujan hammer is also quite popular.  Yeah, kinda pricy, but (don't repeat me here) you can find Chynese knockoffs on Fl(eabay) that are much cheaper but do work.  As someone I read long ago, make the last tiny bit of pressure to the upside to create stability.  If you push the lever flat to get in tune, the section of wire that is connected to the tuning pin will be flatter than the rest of the string.  Then later the wire can move and affect the tuning.  If your last move is to the upside, the wire will be more equally tensioned everywhere.  

Over time you'll figure things out.  Try various techniques and see what works.  I'm sure there will be others who will suggest their tips and tricks.  If you have a good tuning app/ETD, it will help you see what you're doing.  I use Pianoscope.

Good luck.

Paul

Thanks Paul. My tuning levers is one of those beginner ones and is pretty darn heavy. Hard to justify more tools when I'm not making a single dollar at the moment but I can see how a good hammer can make the biggest difference.

Hi Andrew:

Here are a few things I would try.  First, make sure the windows and doors are shut while you're tuning.  If there's any air blowing around the piano, it could drift.  No ceiling fans either.  As far as using the tuning lever, I try to put the lever as close to parallel to the string as possible.  Some may disagree, but I was given this advice when I first started tuning, and it has served me well, even though it might be un-ergonomic.  Especially where the piano has agraffes.  I use a 2:00 position in the treble area.

As a new tuner, the technique to master is to make your movement of the tuning pin as small as possible, and yet actually turn the pin in the pinblock.  Yes, also, as Wim suggests, test the pitch by nudging the lever a bit in either direction to see if there's a tendency to drift sharp or flat.  When you have a very tight pin, this is even more challenging because the pin will easily twist and yet not move in the pinblock.  Having a very light and stiff tuning hammer helps because you can feel it move.  I use a Charles Faulk, but the Fujan hammer is also quite popular.  Yeah, kinda pricy, but (don't repeat me here) you can find Chynese knockoffs on Fl(eabay) that are much cheaper but do work.  As someone I read long ago, make the last tiny bit of pressure to the upside to create stability.  If you push the lever flat to get in tune, the section of wire that is connected to the tuning pin will be flatter than the rest of the string.  Then later the wire can move and affect the tuning.  If your last move is to the upside, the wire will be more equally tensioned everywhere.  

Over time you'll figure things out.  Try various techniques and see what works.  I'm sure there will be others who will suggest their tips and tricks.  If you have a good tuning app/ETD, it will help you see what you're doing.  I use Pianoscope.

Good luck.

Paul

Hi David, et. al. I've struck out a line in my original post as I was exaggerating (as I tend to do, to my detriment) when I said "minutes later". It is usually about an hour or two later, maybe the next morning when I take the next measurement of the handful of notes that I have tuned. In addition, when I measure the notes, I measure each individual string separately since I find that devices tend to be off by a few tenths of a cent when more than one string is involved. I also make sure the device is in exactly the same place as the original measurement since I've learned that that also affects the measurements.

To answer your questions, no, I've been doing these experiments on my project piano that is completely open all the time. Windows are sometimes open.

What's interesting is that I did a measurement this morning around 9am, things were +1.3 cents. I did another measurement just now (4pm) and to my surprise, it has gone back down to where I expected it to be. Some strings even -0.1c. Some unisons were off by tenths. 

This leads me to believe that even in San Diego where it is always a comfortable 72 degrees year round (joking), that the day-night swings can affect the pitch. Not only that but there seems to be some hours delay before the pitch is affected. Like the delay in tides by the gravity of the moon, if you will.

Is there any validation to my hypothesis?

Hi David, et. al. I've struck out a line in my original post as I was exaggerating (as I tend to do, to my detriment) when I said "minutes later". It is usually about an hour or two later, maybe the next morning when I take the next measurement of the handful of notes that I have tuned. In addition, when I measure the notes, I measure each individual string separately since I find that devices tend to be off by a few tenths of a cent when more than one string is involved. I also make sure the device is in exactly the same place as the original measurement since I've learned that that also affects the measurements.

To answer your questions, no, I've been doing these experiments on my project piano that is completely open all the time. Windows are sometimes open.

What's interesting is that I did a measurement this morning around 9am, things were +1.3 cents. I did another measurement just now (4pm) and to my surprise, it has gone back down to where I expected it to be. Some strings even -0.1c. Some unisons were off by tenths. 

This leads me to believe that even in San Diego where it is always a comfortable 72 degrees year round (joking), that the day-night swings can affect the pitch. Not only that but there seems to be some hours delay before the pitch is affected. Like the delay in tides by the gravity of the moon, if you will.

Is there any validation to my hypothesis?

Hi David, et. al. I've struck out a line in my original post as I was exaggerating (as I tend to do, to my detriment) when I said "minutes later". It is usually about an hour or two later, maybe the next morning when I take the next measurement of the handful of notes that I have tuned. In addition, when I measure the notes, I measure each individual string separately since I find that devices tend to be off by a few tenths of a cent when more than one string is involved. I also make sure the device is in exactly the same place as the original measurement since I've learned that that also affects the measurements.

To answer your questions, no, I've been doing these experiments on my project piano that is completely open all the time. Windows are sometimes open.

What's interesting is that I did a measurement this morning around 9am, things were +1.3 cents. I did another measurement just now (4pm) and to my surprise, it has gone back down to where I expected it to be. Some strings even -0.1c. Some unisons were off by tenths. 

This leads me to believe that even in San Diego where it is always a comfortable 72 degrees year round (joking), that the day-night swings can affect the pitch. Not only that but there seems to be some hours delay before the pitch is affected. Like the delay in tides by the gravity of the moon, if you will.

Is there any validation to my hypothesis?

Hi David, et. al. I've struck out a line in my original post as I was exaggerating (as I tend to do, to my detriment) when I said "minutes later". It is usually about an hour or two later, maybe the next morning when I take the next measurement of the handful of notes that I have tuned. In addition, when I measure the notes, I measure each individual string separately since I find that devices tend to be off by a few tenths of a cent when more than one string is involved. I also make sure the device is in exactly the same place as the original measurement since I've learned that that also affects the measurements.

To answer your questions, no, I've been doing these experiments on my project piano that is completely open all the time. Windows are sometimes open.

What's interesting is that I did a measurement this morning around 9am, things were +1.3 cents. I did another measurement just now (4pm) and to my surprise, it has gone back down to where I expected it to be. Some strings even -0.1c. Some unisons were off by tenths. 

This leads me to believe that even in San Diego where it is always a comfortable 72 degrees year round (joking), that the day-night swings can affect the pitch. Not only that but there seems to be some hours delay before the pitch is affected. Like the delay in tides by the gravity of the moon, if you will.

Is there any validation to my hypothesis?

When you measure strings individually, it's not the device that is off...when you mute neighboring strings in a unison you are changing the way the note as a whole resonates (by muting strings). Doing so will change the frequency of the string you are measuring. Once you remove the mutes, the strings go back to normal...meaning, they go back to what they were vibrating at before you put mutes in.

This is called Weinrich Drift.

https://howtotunepianos.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Weinreich-Drift-Paper.pdf

Hi David, et. al. I've struck out a line in my original post as I was exaggerating (as I tend to do, to my detriment) when I said "minutes later". It is usually about an hour or two later, maybe the next morning when I take the next measurement of the handful of notes that I have tuned. In addition, when I measure the notes, I measure each individual string separately since I find that devices tend to be off by a few tenths of a cent when more than one string is involved. I also make sure the device is in exactly the same place as the original measurement since I've learned that that also affects the measurements.

To answer your questions, no, I've been doing these experiments on my project piano that is completely open all the time. Windows are sometimes open.

What's interesting is that I did a measurement this morning around 9am, things were +1.3 cents. I did another measurement just now (4pm) and to my surprise, it has gone back down to where I expected it to be. Some strings even -0.1c. Some unisons were off by tenths. 

This leads me to believe that even in San Diego where it is always a comfortable 72 degrees year round (joking), that the day-night swings can affect the pitch. Not only that but there seems to be some hours delay before the pitch is affected. Like the delay in tides by the gravity of the moon, if you will.

Is there any validation to my hypothesis?

When you measure strings individually, it's not the device that is off...when you mute neighboring strings in a unison you are changing the way the note as a whole resonates (by muting strings). Doing so will change the frequency of the string you are measuring. Once you remove the mutes, the strings go back to normal...meaning, they go back to what they were vibrating at before you put mutes in.

This is called Weinrich Drift.

https://howtotunepianos.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Weinreich-Drift-Paper.pdf

Hi David, et. al. I've struck out a line in my original post as I was exaggerating (as I tend to do, to my detriment) when I said "minutes later". It is usually about an hour or two later, maybe the next morning when I take the next measurement of the handful of notes that I have tuned. In addition, when I measure the notes, I measure each individual string separately since I find that devices tend to be off by a few tenths of a cent when more than one string is involved. I also make sure the device is in exactly the same place as the original measurement since I've learned that that also affects the measurements.

To answer your questions, no, I've been doing these experiments on my project piano that is completely open all the time. Windows are sometimes open.

What's interesting is that I did a measurement this morning around 9am, things were +1.3 cents. I did another measurement just now (4pm) and to my surprise, it has gone back down to where I expected it to be. Some strings even -0.1c. Some unisons were off by tenths. 

This leads me to believe that even in San Diego where it is always a comfortable 72 degrees year round (joking), that the day-night swings can affect the pitch. Not only that but there seems to be some hours delay before the pitch is affected. Like the delay in tides by the gravity of the moon, if you will.

Is there any validation to my hypothesis?

Cobrun, that is absolutely fascinating and is something I will need to keep in my back pocket for later! For the moment, I'm trying to reduce the number of variables when taking the measurements which is why I'm choosing to only measure one string of each note and muting the rest -- thereby unknowingly, and thankfully, avoiding the Weinrich Drift.

When you measure strings individually, it's not the device that is off...when you mute neighboring strings in a unison you are changing the way the note as a whole resonates (by muting strings). Doing so will change the frequency of the string you are measuring. Once you remove the mutes, the strings go back to normal...meaning, they go back to what they were vibrating at before you put mutes in.

This is called Weinrich Drift.

https://howtotunepianos.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Weinreich-Drift-Paper.pdf

Hi David, et. al. I've struck out a line in my original post as I was exaggerating (as I tend to do, to my detriment) when I said "minutes later". It is usually about an hour or two later, maybe the next morning when I take the next measurement of the handful of notes that I have tuned. In addition, when I measure the notes, I measure each individual string separately since I find that devices tend to be off by a few tenths of a cent when more than one string is involved. I also make sure the device is in exactly the same place as the original measurement since I've learned that that also affects the measurements.

To answer your questions, no, I've been doing these experiments on my project piano that is completely open all the time. Windows are sometimes open.

What's interesting is that I did a measurement this morning around 9am, things were +1.3 cents. I did another measurement just now (4pm) and to my surprise, it has gone back down to where I expected it to be. Some strings even -0.1c. Some unisons were off by tenths. 

This leads me to believe that even in San Diego where it is always a comfortable 72 degrees year round (joking), that the day-night swings can affect the pitch. Not only that but there seems to be some hours delay before the pitch is affected. Like the delay in tides by the gravity of the moon, if you will.

Is there any validation to my hypothesis?

Cobrun, that is absolutely fascinating and is something I will need to keep in my back pocket for later! For the moment, I'm trying to reduce the number of variables when taking the measurements which is why I'm choosing to only measure one string of each note and muting the rest -- thereby unknowingly, and thankfully, avoiding the Weinrich Drift.

When you measure strings individually, it's not the device that is off...when you mute neighboring strings in a unison you are changing the way the note as a whole resonates (by muting strings). Doing so will change the frequency of the string you are measuring. Once you remove the mutes, the strings go back to normal...meaning, they go back to what they were vibrating at before you put mutes in.

This is called Weinrich Drift.

https://howtotunepianos.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Weinreich-Drift-Paper.pdf

Andrew --

I agree with everything everyone here has already said. The one thing I would add is to invest in a temperature/humidity gauge. With that you can see how your tunings drift relative to how the temperature and humidity changes. Changes in humidity will cause the most change in tunings. As I tell my customers, the piano, (tuning), is literally breathing with the weather. 

Here is the one I use. It's an AcuRite Humidity Meter Hygrometer and Indoor Digital Thermometer with Temperature Gauge and Humidity Gauge. Only $16.49 on Amazon. AND... you can calibrate it. 

https://a.co/d/dJhGais 

Every time I service a customers piano I document both temperature and humidity. If I find the piano way out of tune, and I compare the humidity reading from the last time I was there to the current reading, if there is a large difference I know that it's the humidity that caused the tuning to go out. Not anything I missed. 

* While calibrating the hygrometer is easy, and probably a good thing to do, (I calibrate mine about once a year), what you are concerned with is not the actual humidity so much as the change from one reading to the next. 

Also, take the leap and invest in a more professional hammer. It's a lifetime investment and will allow you to learn a better touch and feel of the pin while tuning. That really is the hardest part of tuning to learn, and it takes hundreds of tunings for you to come close to mastering it. Especially since every piano you meet is going to feel different. Don't give up. Practice, practice, practice. 

Geoff. Wow, that's such a great idea. I think what I might do is use this to take measurements throughout the day of both the hygrometer and the string pitch to see what the patterns are. It might be a very cool experiment and could be eye opening for me to understand how much of the instability is because of the environment or because of my technique.

My home doesn't fluctuate all that much. But I actually don't know for sure and this exercise could put that doubt to rest.

Andrew --

I agree with everything everyone here has already said. The one thing I would add is to invest in a temperature/humidity gauge. With that you can see how your tunings drift relative to how the temperature and humidity changes. Changes in humidity will cause the most change in tunings. As I tell my customers, the piano, (tuning), is literally breathing with the weather. 

Here is the one I use. It's an AcuRite Humidity Meter Hygrometer and Indoor Digital Thermometer with Temperature Gauge and Humidity Gauge. Only $16.49 on Amazon. AND... you can calibrate it. 

https://a.co/d/dJhGais 

Every time I service a customers piano I document both temperature and humidity. If I find the piano way out of tune, and I compare the humidity reading from the last time I was there to the current reading, if there is a large difference I know that it's the humidity that caused the tuning to go out. Not anything I missed. 

* While calibrating the hygrometer is easy, and probably a good thing to do, (I calibrate mine about once a year), what you are concerned with is not the actual humidity so much as the change from one reading to the next. 

Also, take the leap and invest in a more professional hammer. It's a lifetime investment and will allow you to learn a better touch and feel of the pin while tuning. That really is the hardest part of tuning to learn, and it takes hundreds of tunings for you to come close to mastering it. Especially since every piano you meet is going to feel different. Don't give up. Practice, practice, practice. 

Andrew --

I agree with everything everyone here has already said. The one thing I would add is to invest in a temperature/humidity gauge. With that you can see how your tunings drift relative to how the temperature and humidity changes. Changes in humidity will cause the most change in tunings. As I tell my customers, the piano, (tuning), is literally breathing with the weather. 

Here is the one I use. It's an AcuRite Humidity Meter Hygrometer and Indoor Digital Thermometer with Temperature Gauge and Humidity Gauge. Only $16.49 on Amazon. AND... you can calibrate it. 

https://a.co/d/dJhGais 

Every time I service a customers piano I document both temperature and humidity. If I find the piano way out of tune, and I compare the humidity reading from the last time I was there to the current reading, if there is a large difference I know that it's the humidity that caused the tuning to go out. Not anything I missed. 

* While calibrating the hygrometer is easy, and probably a good thing to do, (I calibrate mine about once a year), what you are concerned with is not the actual humidity so much as the change from one reading to the next. 

Also, take the leap and invest in a more professional hammer. It's a lifetime investment and will allow you to learn a better touch and feel of the pin while tuning. That really is the hardest part of tuning to learn, and it takes hundreds of tunings for you to come close to mastering it. Especially since every piano you meet is going to feel different. Don't give up. Practice, practice, practice. 

Andrew, you don't say how flat these pianos were before you started. Especially if they were very flat, then the humidity went up. 

1.5 BEATS is a lot, 1.5 cents is not. Especially since it's not bad unisons.

Andrew --

I agree with everything everyone here has already said. The one thing I would add is to invest in a temperature/humidity gauge. With that you can see how your tunings drift relative to how the temperature and humidity changes. Changes in humidity will cause the most change in tunings. As I tell my customers, the piano, (tuning), is literally breathing with the weather. 

Here is the one I use. It's an AcuRite Humidity Meter Hygrometer and Indoor Digital Thermometer with Temperature Gauge and Humidity Gauge. Only $16.49 on Amazon. AND... you can calibrate it. 

https://a.co/d/dJhGais 

Every time I service a customers piano I document both temperature and humidity. If I find the piano way out of tune, and I compare the humidity reading from the last time I was there to the current reading, if there is a large difference I know that it's the humidity that caused the tuning to go out. Not anything I missed. 

* While calibrating the hygrometer is easy, and probably a good thing to do, (I calibrate mine about once a year), what you are concerned with is not the actual humidity so much as the change from one reading to the next. 

Also, take the leap and invest in a more professional hammer. It's a lifetime investment and will allow you to learn a better touch and feel of the pin while tuning. That really is the hardest part of tuning to learn, and it takes hundreds of tunings for you to come close to mastering it. Especially since every piano you meet is going to feel different. Don't give up. Practice, practice, practice. 

Cindy beat me to it. Depending on how far away from A-440 the piano was initially, do expect some movement. I remember one gentleman I knew say that if the piano is more than 2¢ flat, he does a second pass. While that's a little extreme to my thinking, he was absolutely convinced of it. There's an old axiom that says you can't tune an out-of-tune piano, so it's quite possible that you may need to tune it twice to get it stable.

I always tell my students that loud test blows do not create stability, but they do expose instability. Your tuning lever technique plays the main role in how stable your tunings are, and if it's not correct, a test blow will most likely expose it. (This is why some tuners are incredibly stable but relatively quiet as they work.)

For most pianos, you want to place your lever in the 12 o'clock position, that is, in line with the string. This will give you the best balance between moving the pin and moving the pitch of the string. However, on some pianos that just won't work. Some pianos need your tuning lever to be more towards the 3 o'clock position, which will move the pin before the pitch moves. Only a few need your tuning lever position to be more towards the 9 o'clock position, which will move the pitch before the pin moves. 

At the end of the day, it's going to come down to you experimenting to find out what works for that particular piano. Each piano is different. It's just part of the job. 

Also, I know the Chinese carbon-fiber knockoff tuning levers are cheap, but the ones I've seen are not worth it. The head angle is too small for good clearance on some pianos and the quality varies. I strongly recommend you buy an American made tuning lever. The quality is there, and this will be a once-in-a-lifetime purchase. If finances are a concern, I've seen good results with the Levitan lever that Schaff sells. Last I looked, $175 wholesale. Personally, I use a Fujan and my other technician uses a Charles Faulk. All three are good options. 

Andrew, you don't say how flat these pianos were before you started. Especially if they were very flat, then the humidity went up. 

1.5 BEATS is a lot, 1.5 cents is not. Especially since it's not bad unisons.

Andrew --

I agree with everything everyone here has already said. The one thing I would add is to invest in a temperature/humidity gauge. With that you can see how your tunings drift relative to how the temperature and humidity changes. Changes in humidity will cause the most change in tunings. As I tell my customers, the piano, (tuning), is literally breathing with the weather. 

Here is the one I use. It's an AcuRite Humidity Meter Hygrometer and Indoor Digital Thermometer with Temperature Gauge and Humidity Gauge. Only $16.49 on Amazon. AND... you can calibrate it. 

https://a.co/d/dJhGais 

Every time I service a customers piano I document both temperature and humidity. If I find the piano way out of tune, and I compare the humidity reading from the last time I was there to the current reading, if there is a large difference I know that it's the humidity that caused the tuning to go out. Not anything I missed. 

* While calibrating the hygrometer is easy, and probably a good thing to do, (I calibrate mine about once a year), what you are concerned with is not the actual humidity so much as the change from one reading to the next. 

Also, take the leap and invest in a more professional hammer. It's a lifetime investment and will allow you to learn a better touch and feel of the pin while tuning. That really is the hardest part of tuning to learn, and it takes hundreds of tunings for you to come close to mastering it. Especially since every piano you meet is going to feel different. Don't give up. Practice, practice, practice. 

Cindy beat me to it. Depending on how far away from A-440 the piano was initially, do expect some movement. I remember one gentleman I knew say that if the piano is more than 2¢ flat, he does a second pass. While that's a little extreme to my thinking, he was absolutely convinced of it. There's an old axiom that says you can't tune an out-of-tune piano, so it's quite possible that you may need to tune it twice to get it stable.

I always tell my students that loud test blows do not create stability, but they do expose instability. Your tuning lever technique plays the main role in how stable your tunings are, and if it's not correct, a test blow will most likely expose it. (This is why some tuners are incredibly stable but relatively quiet as they work.)

For most pianos, you want to place your lever in the 12 o'clock position, that is, in line with the string. This will give you the best balance between moving the pin and moving the pitch of the string. However, on some pianos that just won't work. Some pianos need your tuning lever to be more towards the 3 o'clock position, which will move the pin before the pitch moves. Only a few need your tuning lever position to be more towards the 9 o'clock position, which will move the pitch before the pin moves. 

At the end of the day, it's going to come down to you experimenting to find out what works for that particular piano. Each piano is different. It's just part of the job. 

Also, I know the Chinese carbon-fiber knockoff tuning levers are cheap, but the ones I've seen are not worth it. The head angle is too small for good clearance on some pianos and the quality varies. I strongly recommend you buy an American made tuning lever. The quality is there, and this will be a once-in-a-lifetime purchase. If finances are a concern, I've seen good results with the Levitan lever that Schaff sells. Last I looked, $175 wholesale. Personally, I use a Fujan and my other technician uses a Charles Faulk. All three are good options. 

Andrew, you don't say how flat these pianos were before you started. Especially if they were very flat, then the humidity went up. 

1.5 BEATS is a lot, 1.5 cents is not. Especially since it's not bad unisons.

Andrew --

I agree with everything everyone here has already said. The one thing I would add is to invest in a temperature/humidity gauge. With that you can see how your tunings drift relative to how the temperature and humidity changes. Changes in humidity will cause the most change in tunings. As I tell my customers, the piano, (tuning), is literally breathing with the weather. 

Here is the one I use. It's an AcuRite Humidity Meter Hygrometer and Indoor Digital Thermometer with Temperature Gauge and Humidity Gauge. Only $16.49 on Amazon. AND... you can calibrate it. 

https://a.co/d/dJhGais 

Every time I service a customers piano I document both temperature and humidity. If I find the piano way out of tune, and I compare the humidity reading from the last time I was there to the current reading, if there is a large difference I know that it's the humidity that caused the tuning to go out. Not anything I missed. 

* While calibrating the hygrometer is easy, and probably a good thing to do, (I calibrate mine about once a year), what you are concerned with is not the actual humidity so much as the change from one reading to the next. 

Also, take the leap and invest in a more professional hammer. It's a lifetime investment and will allow you to learn a better touch and feel of the pin while tuning. That really is the hardest part of tuning to learn, and it takes hundreds of tunings for you to come close to mastering it. Especially since every piano you meet is going to feel different. Don't give up. Practice, practice, practice. 

One question. You say "experimenting to find out what works for that particular piano". I do hear this a lot and it makes sense that ever piano is different but when I'm at a client's home, I don't have an hour to figure out if it's pitch will have drifted within that time -- and the client probably wants me out of the home too! I just have to do my best and go. How would you respond to that?

Cindy beat me to it. Depending on how far away from A-440 the piano was initially, do expect some movement. I remember one gentleman I knew say that if the piano is more than 2¢ flat, he does a second pass. While that's a little extreme to my thinking, he was absolutely convinced of it. There's an old axiom that says you can't tune an out-of-tune piano, so it's quite possible that you may need to tune it twice to get it stable.

I always tell my students that loud test blows do not create stability, but they do expose instability. Your tuning lever technique plays the main role in how stable your tunings are, and if it's not correct, a test blow will most likely expose it. (This is why some tuners are incredibly stable but relatively quiet as they work.)

For most pianos, you want to place your lever in the 12 o'clock position, that is, in line with the string. This will give you the best balance between moving the pin and moving the pitch of the string. However, on some pianos that just won't work. Some pianos need your tuning lever to be more towards the 3 o'clock position, which will move the pin before the pitch moves. Only a few need your tuning lever position to be more towards the 9 o'clock position, which will move the pitch before the pin moves. 

At the end of the day, it's going to come down to you experimenting to find out what works for that particular piano. Each piano is different. It's just part of the job. 

Also, I know the Chinese carbon-fiber knockoff tuning levers are cheap, but the ones I've seen are not worth it. The head angle is too small for good clearance on some pianos and the quality varies. I strongly recommend you buy an American made tuning lever. The quality is there, and this will be a once-in-a-lifetime purchase. If finances are a concern, I've seen good results with the Levitan lever that Schaff sells. Last I looked, $175 wholesale. Personally, I use a Fujan and my other technician uses a Charles Faulk. All three are good options. 

Andrew, you don't say how flat these pianos were before you started. Especially if they were very flat, then the humidity went up. 

1.5 BEATS is a lot, 1.5 cents is not. Especially since it's not bad unisons.

Andrew --

I agree with everything everyone here has already said. The one thing I would add is to invest in a temperature/humidity gauge. With that you can see how your tunings drift relative to how the temperature and humidity changes. Changes in humidity will cause the most change in tunings. As I tell my customers, the piano, (tuning), is literally breathing with the weather. 

Here is the one I use. It's an AcuRite Humidity Meter Hygrometer and Indoor Digital Thermometer with Temperature Gauge and Humidity Gauge. Only $16.49 on Amazon. AND... you can calibrate it. 

https://a.co/d/dJhGais 

Every time I service a customers piano I document both temperature and humidity. If I find the piano way out of tune, and I compare the humidity reading from the last time I was there to the current reading, if there is a large difference I know that it's the humidity that caused the tuning to go out. Not anything I missed. 

* While calibrating the hygrometer is easy, and probably a good thing to do, (I calibrate mine about once a year), what you are concerned with is not the actual humidity so much as the change from one reading to the next. 

Also, take the leap and invest in a more professional hammer. It's a lifetime investment and will allow you to learn a better touch and feel of the pin while tuning. That really is the hardest part of tuning to learn, and it takes hundreds of tunings for you to come close to mastering it. Especially since every piano you meet is going to feel different. Don't give up. Practice, practice, practice. 

One question. You say "experimenting to find out what works for that particular piano". I do hear this a lot and it makes sense that ever piano is different but when I'm at a client's home, I don't have an hour to figure out if it's pitch will have drifted within that time -- and the client probably wants me out of the home too! I just have to do my best and go. How would you respond to that?

Cindy beat me to it. Depending on how far away from A-440 the piano was initially, do expect some movement. I remember one gentleman I knew say that if the piano is more than 2¢ flat, he does a second pass. While that's a little extreme to my thinking, he was absolutely convinced of it. There's an old axiom that says you can't tune an out-of-tune piano, so it's quite possible that you may need to tune it twice to get it stable.

I always tell my students that loud test blows do not create stability, but they do expose instability. Your tuning lever technique plays the main role in how stable your tunings are, and if it's not correct, a test blow will most likely expose it. (This is why some tuners are incredibly stable but relatively quiet as they work.)

For most pianos, you want to place your lever in the 12 o'clock position, that is, in line with the string. This will give you the best balance between moving the pin and moving the pitch of the string. However, on some pianos that just won't work. Some pianos need your tuning lever to be more towards the 3 o'clock position, which will move the pin before the pitch moves. Only a few need your tuning lever position to be more towards the 9 o'clock position, which will move the pitch before the pin moves. 

At the end of the day, it's going to come down to you experimenting to find out what works for that particular piano. Each piano is different. It's just part of the job. 

Also, I know the Chinese carbon-fiber knockoff tuning levers are cheap, but the ones I've seen are not worth it. The head angle is too small for good clearance on some pianos and the quality varies. I strongly recommend you buy an American made tuning lever. The quality is there, and this will be a once-in-a-lifetime purchase. If finances are a concern, I've seen good results with the Levitan lever that Schaff sells. Last I looked, $175 wholesale. Personally, I use a Fujan and my other technician uses a Charles Faulk. All three are good options. 

Andrew, you don't say how flat these pianos were before you started. Especially if they were very flat, then the humidity went up. 

1.5 BEATS is a lot, 1.5 cents is not. Especially since it's not bad unisons.

If you have made your best effort, your unisons are holding and sounding good, the temperature is steady, etc., what more are you going to do? 

I will mention too that no direct sunlight on the strings. 

If you have A/C running in the room, whether it's on or off, likely you won't ever have a stable tuning.  I once had a spinet in a cold room with A/C on.  I could not get a stable tuning.  I rescheduled another day, the A/C was off, and room temperature.  Tuned right up.  A PLS (damppchaser) helps, but even then if you open up the piano the strings will cool down and pitch goes up a little.  I have a client with a console that's next to a sliding door to the outside.  It can be wildly out each time I come.  No damppchaser in it.  She's a flute teacher, so I have to do my best job.  Temperature changes make almost instant pitch changes.  It's frustrating because it's a lot of effort even to change the pitch a cent or two.  I tune dueling pianos downtown.  They face each other.  The overhead lighting is LED on one side, the other has some incandescent bulbs.  Guess which one I have more string breaking and unstable tunings on?  I used to tune with the lights on.  Then I realized that the heat from the lights was affecting the tuning.  It was a slog until I realized that the lights were hot on that one side.  I started using a headlamp (it's dark in there even during the day).  What do you know?  My tunings became much more stable.  Never mind what happens when the show starts and they turn on the lights, I can't help that.  But the more I tune, the more I realize that ambient temperature affects my tunings.  Something to contemplate.

Thanks Paul. I am tuning under pretty stable conditions for these two pianos at my home -- the ones I practice piano tech on. I'm actually trying to reduce the number of variables that can affect my tuning practice so that I can isolate what is my technique vs. what is in the environment that might be affecting the pitch.

As a beginner, we don't know what is "good enough". I think this can be the disheartening bit of it. At the end of 3 hours doing a pitch adjustment and a fine tune, I find that 80% of my unisons are off, what should I make of it? My technique? Environment? Likely BOTH!

Paul, as a professional, you tune my piano, and an hour later find that the unisons are 0.2-0.3c off from each other and the average pitch has gone up 0.3c, would you be happy with that? Honest question.

Ah shoot, I left the kitchen window open!!!! 😫

If you have made your best effort, your unisons are holding and sounding good, the temperature is steady, etc., what more are you going to do? 

I will mention too that no direct sunlight on the strings. 

If you have A/C running in the room, whether it's on or off, likely you won't ever have a stable tuning.  I once had a spinet in a cold room with A/C on.  I could not get a stable tuning.  I rescheduled another day, the A/C was off, and room temperature.  Tuned right up.  A PLS (damppchaser) helps, but even then if you open up the piano the strings will cool down and pitch goes up a little.  I have a client with a console that's next to a sliding door to the outside.  It can be wildly out each time I come.  No damppchaser in it.  She's a flute teacher, so I have to do my best job.  Temperature changes make almost instant pitch changes.  It's frustrating because it's a lot of effort even to change the pitch a cent or two.  I tune dueling pianos downtown.  They face each other.  The overhead lighting is LED on one side, the other has some incandescent bulbs.  Guess which one I have more string breaking and unstable tunings on?  I used to tune with the lights on.  Then I realized that the heat from the lights was affecting the tuning.  It was a slog until I realized that the lights were hot on that one side.  I started using a headlamp (it's dark in there even during the day).  What do you know?  My tunings became much more stable.  Never mind what happens when the show starts and they turn on the lights, I can't help that.  But the more I tune, the more I realize that ambient temperature affects my tunings.  Something to contemplate.

Hi Andrew:

If you can get to .2-.3 cents accuracy, you're doing really good!  If it drifts that much in an hour, I wouldn't worry much about it.  You'll refine your technique over time, discovering things along the way.  I'm STILL finding new things to try and what I thought was good simply wasn't.  Since I've been using Pianoscope, I've been able to see how far off I was, even though I thought it sounded good.  I'll go back later and see how far off and hear it too.  On some pianos I'll tune the unisons by ear, others I'll tune each string to the app.  In almost every case, the ones I did with Pianoscope are better over time.  But anyway, try to develop your ear to hear when the two strings of a unison are pure, and by a very slight touch of the tuning hammer they move closer or farther from pure.  Try to feel the tendency of the string to move sharp or flat and if there is some twist in the tuning pin that's doing it.  It takes a long time to develop the feel for how the tuning pin is moving in the pinblock, and forcing it to where you want it and make it stay there.  In the beginning, I used to pound hard.  But I discovered that doing that made it go sharp after a little while.  So I backed off.  I rarely do a hard blow anymore.  But I can see what's happening in the app and I have honed my skills using it.  It's hard because every string is different, and some strings fluctuate in pitch more than others when you hit them.  For the initial blow, all strings go sharp, and then settle down.  So it's kind of a moving target.

I know that soon you'll get a hold on all of this and you'll be an excellent tech.  How do I know?  Because you care.  You don't like that it has changed over time.  You want to make it right.  That's what you need to succeed in this business.  Like the old Avis commercial, "We try harder".

Thanks Paul. I am tuning under pretty stable conditions for these two pianos at my home -- the ones I practice piano tech on. I'm actually trying to reduce the number of variables that can affect my tuning practice so that I can isolate what is my technique vs. what is in the environment that might be affecting the pitch.

As a beginner, we don't know what is "good enough". I think this can be the disheartening bit of it. At the end of 3 hours doing a pitch adjustment and a fine tune, I find that 80% of my unisons are off, what should I make of it? My technique? Environment? Likely BOTH!

Paul, as a professional, you tune my piano, and an hour later find that the unisons are 0.2-0.3c off from each other and the average pitch has gone up 0.3c, would you be happy with that? Honest question.

Ah shoot, I left the kitchen window open!!!! 😫

Hi Andrew:

If you can get to .2-.3 cents accuracy, you're doing really good!  If it drifts that much in an hour, I wouldn't worry much about it.  You'll refine your technique over time, discovering things along the way.  I'm STILL finding new things to try and what I thought was good simply wasn't.  Since I've been using Pianoscope, I've been able to see how far off I was, even though I thought it sounded good.  I'll go back later and see how far off and hear it too.  On some pianos I'll tune the unisons by ear, others I'll tune each string to the app.  In almost every case, the ones I did with Pianoscope are better over time.  But anyway, try to develop your ear to hear when the two strings of a unison are pure, and by a very slight touch of the tuning hammer they move closer or farther from pure.  Try to feel the tendency of the string to move sharp or flat and if there is some twist in the tuning pin that's doing it.  It takes a long time to develop the feel for how the tuning pin is moving in the pinblock, and forcing it to where you want it and make it stay there.  In the beginning, I used to pound hard.  But I discovered that doing that made it go sharp after a little while.  So I backed off.  I rarely do a hard blow anymore.  But I can see what's happening in the app and I have honed my skills using it.  It's hard because every string is different, and some strings fluctuate in pitch more than others when you hit them.  For the initial blow, all strings go sharp, and then settle down.  So it's kind of a moving target.

I know that soon you'll get a hold on all of this and you'll be an excellent tech.  How do I know?  Because you care.  You don't like that it has changed over time.  You want to make it right.  That's what you need to succeed in this business.  Like the old Avis commercial, "We try harder".

Thanks Paul. I am tuning under pretty stable conditions for these two pianos at my home -- the ones I practice piano tech on. I'm actually trying to reduce the number of variables that can affect my tuning practice so that I can isolate what is my technique vs. what is in the environment that might be affecting the pitch.

As a beginner, we don't know what is "good enough". I think this can be the disheartening bit of it. At the end of 3 hours doing a pitch adjustment and a fine tune, I find that 80% of my unisons are off, what should I make of it? My technique? Environment? Likely BOTH!

Paul, as a professional, you tune my piano, and an hour later find that the unisons are 0.2-0.3c off from each other and the average pitch has gone up 0.3c, would you be happy with that? Honest question.

Ah shoot, I left the kitchen window open!!!! 😫

If you have made your best effort, your unisons are holding and sounding good, the temperature is steady, etc., what more are you going to do? 

I will mention too that no direct sunlight on the strings. 

If you have A/C running in the room, whether it's on or off, likely you won't ever have a stable tuning.  I once had a spinet in a cold room with A/C on.  I could not get a stable tuning.  I rescheduled another day, the A/C was off, and room temperature.  Tuned right up.  A PLS (damppchaser) helps, but even then if you open up the piano the strings will cool down and pitch goes up a little.  I have a client with a console that's next to a sliding door to the outside.  It can be wildly out each time I come.  No damppchaser in it.  She's a flute teacher, so I have to do my best job.  Temperature changes make almost instant pitch changes.  It's frustrating because it's a lot of effort even to change the pitch a cent or two.  I tune dueling pianos downtown.  They face each other.  The overhead lighting is LED on one side, the other has some incandescent bulbs.  Guess which one I have more string breaking and unstable tunings on?  I used to tune with the lights on.  Then I realized that the heat from the lights was affecting the tuning.  It was a slog until I realized that the lights were hot on that one side.  I started using a headlamp (it's dark in there even during the day).  What do you know?  My tunings became much more stable.  Never mind what happens when the show starts and they turn on the lights, I can't help that.  But the more I tune, the more I realize that ambient temperature affects my tunings.  Something to contemplate.

Paul, let's say that the temperature goes up 10 degrees F and the A4 key goes down 1c. When the temp goes back down 10 degrees and the strings go sharp, do you expect the unisons to be exactly where they were before? or would you expect to have some deviation, even if slight? Like, the three strings have a ~0.2c difference. i.e. there is now a slight twang to the note but not enough to hear a beat in the fundamental. This is what I'm experiencing right now.

Again, this is from a beginner's perspective about when "good enough" is good enough. It is easy to say that we can always do better. But by framing the question like that where environmental factors are not within your control, is this good enough?

Hi Andrew:

If you can get to .2-.3 cents accuracy, you're doing really good!  If it drifts that much in an hour, I wouldn't worry much about it.  You'll refine your technique over time, discovering things along the way.  I'm STILL finding new things to try and what I thought was good simply wasn't.  Since I've been using Pianoscope, I've been able to see how far off I was, even though I thought it sounded good.  I'll go back later and see how far off and hear it too.  On some pianos I'll tune the unisons by ear, others I'll tune each string to the app.  In almost every case, the ones I did with Pianoscope are better over time.  But anyway, try to develop your ear to hear when the two strings of a unison are pure, and by a very slight touch of the tuning hammer they move closer or farther from pure.  Try to feel the tendency of the string to move sharp or flat and if there is some twist in the tuning pin that's doing it.  It takes a long time to develop the feel for how the tuning pin is moving in the pinblock, and forcing it to where you want it and make it stay there.  In the beginning, I used to pound hard.  But I discovered that doing that made it go sharp after a little while.  So I backed off.  I rarely do a hard blow anymore.  But I can see what's happening in the app and I have honed my skills using it.  It's hard because every string is different, and some strings fluctuate in pitch more than others when you hit them.  For the initial blow, all strings go sharp, and then settle down.  So it's kind of a moving target.

I know that soon you'll get a hold on all of this and you'll be an excellent tech.  How do I know?  Because you care.  You don't like that it has changed over time.  You want to make it right.  That's what you need to succeed in this business.  Like the old Avis commercial, "We try harder".

Thanks Paul. I am tuning under pretty stable conditions for these two pianos at my home -- the ones I practice piano tech on. I'm actually trying to reduce the number of variables that can affect my tuning practice so that I can isolate what is my technique vs. what is in the environment that might be affecting the pitch.

As a beginner, we don't know what is "good enough". I think this can be the disheartening bit of it. At the end of 3 hours doing a pitch adjustment and a fine tune, I find that 80% of my unisons are off, what should I make of it? My technique? Environment? Likely BOTH!

Paul, as a professional, you tune my piano, and an hour later find that the unisons are 0.2-0.3c off from each other and the average pitch has gone up 0.3c, would you be happy with that? Honest question.

Ah shoot, I left the kitchen window open!!!! 😫

Paul, let's say that the temperature goes up 10 degrees F and the A4 key goes down 1c. When the temp goes back down 10 degrees and the strings go sharp, do you expect the unisons to be exactly where they were before? or would you expect to have some deviation, even if slight? Like, the three strings have a ~0.2c difference. i.e. there is now a slight twang to the note but not enough to hear a beat in the fundamental. This is what I'm experiencing right now.

Again, this is from a beginner's perspective about when "good enough" is good enough. It is easy to say that we can always do better. But by framing the question like that where environmental factors are not within your control, is this good enough?

Hi Andrew:

If you can get to .2-.3 cents accuracy, you're doing really good!  If it drifts that much in an hour, I wouldn't worry much about it.  You'll refine your technique over time, discovering things along the way.  I'm STILL finding new things to try and what I thought was good simply wasn't.  Since I've been using Pianoscope, I've been able to see how far off I was, even though I thought it sounded good.  I'll go back later and see how far off and hear it too.  On some pianos I'll tune the unisons by ear, others I'll tune each string to the app.  In almost every case, the ones I did with Pianoscope are better over time.  But anyway, try to develop your ear to hear when the two strings of a unison are pure, and by a very slight touch of the tuning hammer they move closer or farther from pure.  Try to feel the tendency of the string to move sharp or flat and if there is some twist in the tuning pin that's doing it.  It takes a long time to develop the feel for how the tuning pin is moving in the pinblock, and forcing it to where you want it and make it stay there.  In the beginning, I used to pound hard.  But I discovered that doing that made it go sharp after a little while.  So I backed off.  I rarely do a hard blow anymore.  But I can see what's happening in the app and I have honed my skills using it.  It's hard because every string is different, and some strings fluctuate in pitch more than others when you hit them.  For the initial blow, all strings go sharp, and then settle down.  So it's kind of a moving target.

I know that soon you'll get a hold on all of this and you'll be an excellent tech.  How do I know?  Because you care.  You don't like that it has changed over time.  You want to make it right.  That's what you need to succeed in this business.  Like the old Avis commercial, "We try harder".

Thanks Paul. I am tuning under pretty stable conditions for these two pianos at my home -- the ones I practice piano tech on. I'm actually trying to reduce the number of variables that can affect my tuning practice so that I can isolate what is my technique vs. what is in the environment that might be affecting the pitch.

As a beginner, we don't know what is "good enough". I think this can be the disheartening bit of it. At the end of 3 hours doing a pitch adjustment and a fine tune, I find that 80% of my unisons are off, what should I make of it? My technique? Environment? Likely BOTH!

Paul, as a professional, you tune my piano, and an hour later find that the unisons are 0.2-0.3c off from each other and the average pitch has gone up 0.3c, would you be happy with that? Honest question.

Ah shoot, I left the kitchen window open!!!! 😫

If you have made your best effort, your unisons are holding and sounding good, the temperature is steady, etc., what more are you going to do? 

I will mention too that no direct sunlight on the strings. 

If you have A/C running in the room, whether it's on or off, likely you won't ever have a stable tuning.  I once had a spinet in a cold room with A/C on.  I could not get a stable tuning.  I rescheduled another day, the A/C was off, and room temperature.  Tuned right up.  A PLS (damppchaser) helps, but even then if you open up the piano the strings will cool down and pitch goes up a little.  I have a client with a console that's next to a sliding door to the outside.  It can be wildly out each time I come.  No damppchaser in it.  She's a flute teacher, so I have to do my best job.  Temperature changes make almost instant pitch changes.  It's frustrating because it's a lot of effort even to change the pitch a cent or two.  I tune dueling pianos downtown.  They face each other.  The overhead lighting is LED on one side, the other has some incandescent bulbs.  Guess which one I have more string breaking and unstable tunings on?  I used to tune with the lights on.  Then I realized that the heat from the lights was affecting the tuning.  It was a slog until I realized that the lights were hot on that one side.  I started using a headlamp (it's dark in there even during the day).  What do you know?  My tunings became much more stable.  Never mind what happens when the show starts and they turn on the lights, I can't help that.  But the more I tune, the more I realize that ambient temperature affects my tunings.  Something to contemplate.

Andrew, you need to keep things in perspective. There are many factors at play. In answer to the question about the piano returning to their original pitches, generally yes, higher quality pianos more than others. The longer, heavier, bare wires change more than the shorter ones and any disparities will be magnified in the middle of the piano.

An ETD is like a microscope, 0.2 cents is 2/1000's of a of a semitone, if you hear a slight twang it's likely due to other factors such as string mating, voicing, bridge issues or a combination. From a beginner's perspective 0.2 is fantastic! Much of what this counsel has been about is that pianos breathe. It's easy especially with an ETD to get caught up in the minutia. If you have a chance to check any of the pianos you've tuned in the field after a week or two or a month, you'll get some indication of how well you're setting pins and leaving the string segments in a state of equilibrium. 

Keep up the diligence and check your home piano a lot to see how it breathes. Imo, you should close the piano up between sessions as it is more like a real world situation. It might be interesting to check the pitches with the piano all closed and then maybe 20 minutes after you open it up. In some situations I give a grand a good 10 minutes or so after I raise the lid before I take measurements and start the tuning.

Paul, let's say that the temperature goes up 10 degrees F and the A4 key goes down 1c. When the temp goes back down 10 degrees and the strings go sharp, do you expect the unisons to be exactly where they were before? or would you expect to have some deviation, even if slight? Like, the three strings have a ~0.2c difference. i.e. there is now a slight twang to the note but not enough to hear a beat in the fundamental. This is what I'm experiencing right now.

Again, this is from a beginner's perspective about when "good enough" is good enough. It is easy to say that we can always do better. But by framing the question like that where environmental factors are not within your control, is this good enough?

Hi Andrew:

If you can get to .2-.3 cents accuracy, you're doing really good!  If it drifts that much in an hour, I wouldn't worry much about it.  You'll refine your technique over time, discovering things along the way.  I'm STILL finding new things to try and what I thought was good simply wasn't.  Since I've been using Pianoscope, I've been able to see how far off I was, even though I thought it sounded good.  I'll go back later and see how far off and hear it too.  On some pianos I'll tune the unisons by ear, others I'll tune each string to the app.  In almost every case, the ones I did with Pianoscope are better over time.  But anyway, try to develop your ear to hear when the two strings of a unison are pure, and by a very slight touch of the tuning hammer they move closer or farther from pure.  Try to feel the tendency of the string to move sharp or flat and if there is some twist in the tuning pin that's doing it.  It takes a long time to develop the feel for how the tuning pin is moving in the pinblock, and forcing it to where you want it and make it stay there.  In the beginning, I used to pound hard.  But I discovered that doing that made it go sharp after a little while.  So I backed off.  I rarely do a hard blow anymore.  But I can see what's happening in the app and I have honed my skills using it.  It's hard because every string is different, and some strings fluctuate in pitch more than others when you hit them.  For the initial blow, all strings go sharp, and then settle down.  So it's kind of a moving target.

I know that soon you'll get a hold on all of this and you'll be an excellent tech.  How do I know?  Because you care.  You don't like that it has changed over time.  You want to make it right.  That's what you need to succeed in this business.  Like the old Avis commercial, "We try harder".

Thanks Paul. I am tuning under pretty stable conditions for these two pianos at my home -- the ones I practice piano tech on. I'm actually trying to reduce the number of variables that can affect my tuning practice so that I can isolate what is my technique vs. what is in the environment that might be affecting the pitch.

As a beginner, we don't know what is "good enough". I think this can be the disheartening bit of it. At the end of 3 hours doing a pitch adjustment and a fine tune, I find that 80% of my unisons are off, what should I make of it? My technique? Environment? Likely BOTH!

Paul, as a professional, you tune my piano, and an hour later find that the unisons are 0.2-0.3c off from each other and the average pitch has gone up 0.3c, would you be happy with that? Honest question.

Ah shoot, I left the kitchen window open!!!! 😫

Thanks Paul. I am tuning under pretty stable conditions for these two pianos at my home -- the ones I practice piano tech on. I'm actually trying to reduce the number of variables that can affect my tuning practice so that I can isolate what is my technique vs. what is in the environment that might be affecting the pitch.

As a beginner, we don't know what is "good enough". I think this can be the disheartening bit of it. At the end of 3 hours doing a pitch adjustment and a fine tune, I find that 80% of my unisons are off, what should I make of it? My technique? Environment? Likely BOTH!

Paul, as a professional, you tune my piano, and an hour later find that the unisons are 0.2-0.3c off from each other and the average pitch has gone up 0.3c, would you be happy with that? Honest question.

Ah shoot, I left the kitchen window open!!!! 😫

If you have made your best effort, your unisons are holding and sounding good, the temperature is steady, etc., what more are you going to do? 

I will mention too that no direct sunlight on the strings. 

If you have A/C running in the room, whether it's on or off, likely you won't ever have a stable tuning.  I once had a spinet in a cold room with A/C on.  I could not get a stable tuning.  I rescheduled another day, the A/C was off, and room temperature.  Tuned right up.  A PLS (damppchaser) helps, but even then if you open up the piano the strings will cool down and pitch goes up a little.  I have a client with a console that's next to a sliding door to the outside.  It can be wildly out each time I come.  No damppchaser in it.  She's a flute teacher, so I have to do my best job.  Temperature changes make almost instant pitch changes.  It's frustrating because it's a lot of effort even to change the pitch a cent or two.  I tune dueling pianos downtown.  They face each other.  The overhead lighting is LED on one side, the other has some incandescent bulbs.  Guess which one I have more string breaking and unstable tunings on?  I used to tune with the lights on.  Then I realized that the heat from the lights was affecting the tuning.  It was a slog until I realized that the lights were hot on that one side.  I started using a headlamp (it's dark in there even during the day).  What do you know?  My tunings became much more stable.  Never mind what happens when the show starts and they turn on the lights, I can't help that.  But the more I tune, the more I realize that ambient temperature affects my tunings.  Something to contemplate.

Likely it's hammer technique, not environment or excessive hard blows or heating up the strings, or lack of forearm smashes or letting the piano sit or anything else, especially if it's 80% of the unisons that have some movement when you go back and check. You're not leaving the pin in a stable position.  

It's difficult to explain hammer technique in this format but I would work to stabilize by incrementally smaller and smaller, and alternating push-pull, movements as you play the note. Tune MF- F (harder than that is not helpful) but listen P-MP.  Tune unisons as you go.  

Your final pressure on the pin should be on the plane of rotation (this is important) and very very light pressure favoring the slightest (and I mean very slight) counterclockwise direction.  You don't want to press so hard that the pin will tend to want to recover any flex you leave in the opposite direction pulling the pitch sharp. But the tension in the string will want to drag the pin toward the speaking length causing the pitch to go flat so it's better to finish in the direction of the string tension.  That leaves the slightest countering to offset that tendency. Don't overdo it. If you press too hard in that direction in setting the pin, you will leave too much flex toward the string and, again, as the pin relaxes and straightens it will pull the pitch sharp. This is the problem with pulling the pitch sharp and trying to pound it down to the target. Often you will end up trying to force the pitch down by pressing on the pin leaving it flexed toward the string too much and it then will pull sharp as it relaxes.  Or, the excessive pounding process can destabilize the other strings in the unison in either direction, sharp or flat 

Thus the incremental back and forth technique until you are leaving the pin in a very neutral and stable position. 

Check by listening alternating muting right and left string so you're hearing only two strings at a time and compare center+left to center+right listening for any differences indicating one of them is opening up. 

Jon Page's CBL is a good product (and I use it) if you have rendering problems but center pin lubricant works too  

Easier to demonstrate than explain but hopefully that helps. I think many of the other suggestions will send you down a dead end. Stability is all about hammer technique and the ability to feel where the pin is by alternating incremental and very small movements and listing to the subtle pitch changes that are associated with those very small movements. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 11-14-2025 12:47
From: Andrew Young
Subject: Tuning instability - advice from the veterans

Thanks Paul. I am tuning under pretty stable conditions for these two pianos at my home -- the ones I practice piano tech on. I'm actually trying to reduce the number of variables that can affect my tuning practice so that I can isolate what is my technique vs. what is in the environment that might be affecting the pitch.

As a beginner, we don't know what is "good enough". I think this can be the disheartening bit of it. At the end of 3 hours doing a pitch adjustment and a fine tune, I find that 80% of my unisons are off, what should I make of it? My technique? Environment? Likely BOTH!

Paul, as a professional, you tune my piano, and an hour later find that the unisons are 0.2-0.3c off from each other and the average pitch has gone up 0.3c, would you be happy with that? Honest question.

Ah shoot, I left the kitchen window open!!!! 😫

------------------------------
Andrew Young
San Diego CA


Original Message:
Sent: 11-14-2025 12:20
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Tuning instability - advice from the veterans

If you have made your best effort, your unisons are holding and sounding good, the temperature is steady, etc., what more are you going to do? 

I will mention too that no direct sunlight on the strings. 

If you have A/C running in the room, whether it's on or off, likely you won't ever have a stable tuning.  I once had a spinet in a cold room with A/C on.  I could not get a stable tuning.  I rescheduled another day, the A/C was off, and room temperature.  Tuned right up.  A PLS (damppchaser) helps, but even then if you open up the piano the strings will cool down and pitch goes up a little.  I have a client with a console that's next to a sliding door to the outside.  It can be wildly out each time I come.  No damppchaser in it.  She's a flute teacher, so I have to do my best job.  Temperature changes make almost instant pitch changes.  It's frustrating because it's a lot of effort even to change the pitch a cent or two.  I tune dueling pianos downtown.  They face each other.  The overhead lighting is LED on one side, the other has some incandescent bulbs.  Guess which one I have more string breaking and unstable tunings on?  I used to tune with the lights on.  Then I realized that the heat from the lights was affecting the tuning.  It was a slog until I realized that the lights were hot on that one side.  I started using a headlamp (it's dark in there even during the day).  What do you know?  My tunings became much more stable.  Never mind what happens when the show starts and they turn on the lights, I can't help that.  But the more I tune, the more I realize that ambient temperature affects my tunings.  Something to contemplate.

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

David,

I appreciate your comments.  Hammer technique is essential as is temp and humidity.   I won't get into specifics as many have put their 2 cents in.  I have my ways and they rely on mostly hammer technique, not forearm smashes nor letting the structure settle.  

But adding them puts icing on the cake.  The starting point is temp/humidity and hammer technique.  

------------------------------
Tim Coates RPT
Sioux Falls SD
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 11-16-2025 00:43
From: David Love
Subject: Tuning instability - advice from the veterans

Likely it's hammer technique, not environment or excessive hard blows or heating up the strings, or lack of forearm smashes or letting the piano sit or anything else, especially if it's 80% of the unisons that have some movement when you go back and check. You're not leaving the pin in a stable position.  

It's difficult to explain hammer technique in this format but I would work to stabilize by incrementally smaller and smaller, and alternating push-pull, movements as you play the note. Tune MF- F (harder than that is not helpful) but listen P-MP.  Tune unisons as you go.  

Your final pressure on the pin should be on the plane of rotation (this is important) and very very light pressure favoring the slightest (and I mean very slight) counterclockwise direction.  You don't want to press so hard that the pin will tend to want to recover any flex you leave in the opposite direction pulling the pitch sharp. But the tension in the string will want to drag the pin toward the speaking length causing the pitch to go flat so it's better to finish in the direction of the string tension.  That leaves the slightest countering to offset that tendency. Don't overdo it. If you press too hard in that direction in setting the pin, you will leave too much flex toward the string and, again, as the pin relaxes and straightens it will pull the pitch sharp. This is the problem with pulling the pitch sharp and trying to pound it down to the target. Often you will end up trying to force the pitch down by pressing on the pin leaving it flexed toward the string too much and it then will pull sharp as it relaxes.  Or, the excessive pounding process can destabilize the other strings in the unison in either direction, sharp or flat 

Thus the incremental back and forth technique until you are leaving the pin in a very neutral and stable position. 

Check by listening alternating muting right and left string so you're hearing only two strings at a time and compare center+left to center+right listening for any differences indicating one of them is opening up. 

Jon Page's CBL is a good product (and I use it) if you have rendering problems but center pin lubricant works too  

Easier to demonstrate than explain but hopefully that helps. I think many of the other suggestions will send you down a dead end. Stability is all about hammer technique and the ability to feel where the pin is by alternating incremental and very small movements and listing to the subtle pitch changes that are associated with those very small movements. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320


Original Message:
Sent: 11-14-2025 12:47
From: Andrew Young
Subject: Tuning instability - advice from the veterans

Thanks Paul. I am tuning under pretty stable conditions for these two pianos at my home -- the ones I practice piano tech on. I'm actually trying to reduce the number of variables that can affect my tuning practice so that I can isolate what is my technique vs. what is in the environment that might be affecting the pitch.

As a beginner, we don't know what is "good enough". I think this can be the disheartening bit of it. At the end of 3 hours doing a pitch adjustment and a fine tune, I find that 80% of my unisons are off, what should I make of it? My technique? Environment? Likely BOTH!

Paul, as a professional, you tune my piano, and an hour later find that the unisons are 0.2-0.3c off from each other and the average pitch has gone up 0.3c, would you be happy with that? Honest question.

Ah shoot, I left the kitchen window open!!!! 😫

------------------------------
Andrew Young
San Diego CA


Original Message:
Sent: 11-14-2025 12:20
From: Paul McCloud
Subject: Tuning instability - advice from the veterans

If you have made your best effort, your unisons are holding and sounding good, the temperature is steady, etc., what more are you going to do? 

I will mention too that no direct sunlight on the strings. 

If you have A/C running in the room, whether it's on or off, likely you won't ever have a stable tuning.  I once had a spinet in a cold room with A/C on.  I could not get a stable tuning.  I rescheduled another day, the A/C was off, and room temperature.  Tuned right up.  A PLS (damppchaser) helps, but even then if you open up the piano the strings will cool down and pitch goes up a little.  I have a client with a console that's next to a sliding door to the outside.  It can be wildly out each time I come.  No damppchaser in it.  She's a flute teacher, so I have to do my best job.  Temperature changes make almost instant pitch changes.  It's frustrating because it's a lot of effort even to change the pitch a cent or two.  I tune dueling pianos downtown.  They face each other.  The overhead lighting is LED on one side, the other has some incandescent bulbs.  Guess which one I have more string breaking and unstable tunings on?  I used to tune with the lights on.  Then I realized that the heat from the lights was affecting the tuning.  It was a slog until I realized that the lights were hot on that one side.  I started using a headlamp (it's dark in there even during the day).  What do you know?  My tunings became much more stable.  Never mind what happens when the show starts and they turn on the lights, I can't help that.  But the more I tune, the more I realize that ambient temperature affects my tunings.  Something to contemplate.

------------------------------
Paul McCloud, RPT
Accutone Piano Service
www.AccutonePianoService.com
pavadasa@gmail.com

Andrew,

Something I heard when I was just starting out was that it takes 10 years to learn how to tune.  I thought that this was nonsense as I had been tuning for over a year and knew what I was doing.  After two years  I looked back and though "Well it did take 2 years, but I know how to tune".  After 5 years I realized that it did take me those 5 years of experience  to get where I was but I was OK.  After 10 years I  looked back and admitted that it did take me 10 years  to  get decent.

Malcom Gladwell proposed the 10,000 hour rule: it takes 10,000 hours of practice to master a subject.  In a survey of a music school there was found to be three categories of students, 4,000 hour students that intended to go on to be music teachers, 8,000 hour students that would become professional orchestral or performing musicians and 10,000 hour students that would go on to be solo performing artists.  Another example he gave was the Beatles, who worked for 8 years in a club in Germany before returning to England and becoming famous. 

If you add up the hours that a tuner works in 10 years it comes out to nearly 10,000 hours of tuning.

I could probably teach a beginner to tune adequately with an ETM in about a week.  It will  still take about 10 years to develop the business experience and skills, customer relations and deep experience of piano function and responses to your efforts. 

Its a fun journey, though I am still learning HOW to tune after 50+ years.

Hi Blaine,

You wrote:

"I could probably teach a beginner to tune adequately with an ETM in about a week."

Well, perhaps, if that beginner is extraordinarily talented and persistent. And we would have to define "adequately."

Learning to use an app is straightforward enough. Gaining control over tuning pin and string tends to be more elusive (at least, that is what I have observed in the 100 or so people I have trained over the past four decades).

ETM/ETA/ETD proficiency aside, if you could indeed teach someone to tune stably in a week, I would pay good money to see that happen.

Best,

Alan

Andrew,

Something I heard when I was just starting out was that it takes 10 years to learn how to tune.  I thought that this was nonsense as I had been tuning for over a year and knew what I was doing.  After two years  I looked back and though "Well it did take 2 years, but I know how to tune".  After 5 years I realized that it did take me those 5 years of experience  to get where I was but I was OK.  After 10 years I  looked back and admitted that it did take me 10 years  to  get decent.

Malcom Gladwell proposed the 10,000 hour rule: it takes 10,000 hours of practice to master a subject.  In a survey of a music school there was found to be three categories of students, 4,000 hour students that intended to go on to be music teachers, 8,000 hour students that would become professional orchestral or performing musicians and 10,000 hour students that would go on to be solo performing artists.  Another example he gave was the Beatles, who worked for 8 years in a club in Germany before returning to England and becoming famous. 

If you add up the hours that a tuner works in 10 years it comes out to nearly 10,000 hours of tuning.

I could probably teach a beginner to tune adequately with an ETM in about a week.  It will  still take about 10 years to develop the business experience and skills, customer relations and deep experience of piano function and responses to your efforts. 

Its a fun journey, though I am still learning HOW to tune after 50+ years.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but the more you strike the string, the more it heats up and goes flat. This could be part of the reason that it drifts slightly sharp after you tune it, as it cools off.

Hi Blaine,

You wrote:

"I could probably teach a beginner to tune adequately with an ETM in about a week."

Well, perhaps, if that beginner is extraordinarily talented and persistent. And we would have to define "adequately."

Learning to use an app is straightforward enough. Gaining control over tuning pin and string tends to be more elusive (at least, that is what I have observed in the 100 or so people I have trained over the past four decades).

ETM/ETA/ETD proficiency aside, if you could indeed teach someone to tune stably in a week, I would pay good money to see that happen.

Best,

Alan

Andrew,

Something I heard when I was just starting out was that it takes 10 years to learn how to tune.  I thought that this was nonsense as I had been tuning for over a year and knew what I was doing.  After two years  I looked back and though "Well it did take 2 years, but I know how to tune".  After 5 years I realized that it did take me those 5 years of experience  to get where I was but I was OK.  After 10 years I  looked back and admitted that it did take me 10 years  to  get decent.

Malcom Gladwell proposed the 10,000 hour rule: it takes 10,000 hours of practice to master a subject.  In a survey of a music school there was found to be three categories of students, 4,000 hour students that intended to go on to be music teachers, 8,000 hour students that would become professional orchestral or performing musicians and 10,000 hour students that would go on to be solo performing artists.  Another example he gave was the Beatles, who worked for 8 years in a club in Germany before returning to England and becoming famous. 

If you add up the hours that a tuner works in 10 years it comes out to nearly 10,000 hours of tuning.

I could probably teach a beginner to tune adequately with an ETM in about a week.  It will  still take about 10 years to develop the business experience and skills, customer relations and deep experience of piano function and responses to your efforts. 

Its a fun journey, though I am still learning HOW to tune after 50+ years.

When the world was young, I used to try to tune the high treble by tuning sharp and pounding the key while lowering the pitch into tune.  But shortly afterward, the strings would be several cents sharp.  I believe that hard blows will create excess tension across the bridge and trapped there by friction, later leaking back into the speaking length.  My theory, I have no proof.  But I stopped doing that, and since then I just try to tune at most with blows that were as hard as a normal player would do. I was so much older then..
I agree with Paul's explanation.  Very slight temperature changes do affect the strings' pitch.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but the more you strike the string, the more it heats up and goes flat. This could be part of the reason that it drifts slightly sharp after you tune it, as it cools off.

Hi Blaine,

You wrote:

"I could probably teach a beginner to tune adequately with an ETM in about a week."

Well, perhaps, if that beginner is extraordinarily talented and persistent. And we would have to define "adequately."

Learning to use an app is straightforward enough. Gaining control over tuning pin and string tends to be more elusive (at least, that is what I have observed in the 100 or so people I have trained over the past four decades).

ETM/ETA/ETD proficiency aside, if you could indeed teach someone to tune stably in a week, I would pay good money to see that happen.

Best,

Alan

Andrew,

Something I heard when I was just starting out was that it takes 10 years to learn how to tune.  I thought that this was nonsense as I had been tuning for over a year and knew what I was doing.  After two years  I looked back and though "Well it did take 2 years, but I know how to tune".  After 5 years I realized that it did take me those 5 years of experience  to get where I was but I was OK.  After 10 years I  looked back and admitted that it did take me 10 years  to  get decent.

Malcom Gladwell proposed the 10,000 hour rule: it takes 10,000 hours of practice to master a subject.  In a survey of a music school there was found to be three categories of students, 4,000 hour students that intended to go on to be music teachers, 8,000 hour students that would become professional orchestral or performing musicians and 10,000 hour students that would go on to be solo performing artists.  Another example he gave was the Beatles, who worked for 8 years in a club in Germany before returning to England and becoming famous. 

If you add up the hours that a tuner works in 10 years it comes out to nearly 10,000 hours of tuning.

I could probably teach a beginner to tune adequately with an ETM in about a week.  It will  still take about 10 years to develop the business experience and skills, customer relations and deep experience of piano function and responses to your efforts. 

Its a fun journey, though I am still learning HOW to tune after 50+ years.

Paul McCloud: I have long suspected the same with regards to the high treble, but also with no incontrovertible proof (too many darn variables, amirite?). I think you can over-tension both the front and back non speaking lengths by pounding too hard. It's less of an issue in the rest of the piano, and I'm not sure if it's because the bridges are farther away from the strike point or because the longer speaking lengths are better able to absorb heavy blows before they start dragging the string through the bearings. I think we're lucky performers don't hit the high treble as hard or frequently as the rest of the piano or it would be a bit of a conundrum. 

Paul Larudee: I think an infrared camera might be able to demonstrate this effect. I can't remember where I heard it (Todd Scott maybe?) but apparently the agraffes heat up noticeably when you move the string via the tuning pin a lot.

When the world was young, I used to try to tune the high treble by tuning sharp and pounding the key while lowering the pitch into tune.  But shortly afterward, the strings would be several cents sharp.  I believe that hard blows will create excess tension across the bridge and trapped there by friction, later leaking back into the speaking length.  My theory, I have no proof.  But I stopped doing that, and since then I just try to tune at most with blows that were as hard as a normal player would do. I was so much older then..
I agree with Paul's explanation.  Very slight temperature changes do affect the strings' pitch.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet, but the more you strike the string, the more it heats up and goes flat. This could be part of the reason that it drifts slightly sharp after you tune it, as it cools off.

Hi Blaine,

You wrote:

"I could probably teach a beginner to tune adequately with an ETM in about a week."

Well, perhaps, if that beginner is extraordinarily talented and persistent. And we would have to define "adequately."

Learning to use an app is straightforward enough. Gaining control over tuning pin and string tends to be more elusive (at least, that is what I have observed in the 100 or so people I have trained over the past four decades).

ETM/ETA/ETD proficiency aside, if you could indeed teach someone to tune stably in a week, I would pay good money to see that happen.

Best,

Alan

Andrew,

Something I heard when I was just starting out was that it takes 10 years to learn how to tune.  I thought that this was nonsense as I had been tuning for over a year and knew what I was doing.  After two years  I looked back and though "Well it did take 2 years, but I know how to tune".  After 5 years I realized that it did take me those 5 years of experience  to get where I was but I was OK.  After 10 years I  looked back and admitted that it did take me 10 years  to  get decent.

Malcom Gladwell proposed the 10,000 hour rule: it takes 10,000 hours of practice to master a subject.  In a survey of a music school there was found to be three categories of students, 4,000 hour students that intended to go on to be music teachers, 8,000 hour students that would become professional orchestral or performing musicians and 10,000 hour students that would go on to be solo performing artists.  Another example he gave was the Beatles, who worked for 8 years in a club in Germany before returning to England and becoming famous. 

If you add up the hours that a tuner works in 10 years it comes out to nearly 10,000 hours of tuning.

I could probably teach a beginner to tune adequately with an ETM in about a week.  It will  still take about 10 years to develop the business experience and skills, customer relations and deep experience of piano function and responses to your efforts. 

Its a fun journey, though I am still learning HOW to tune after 50+ years.

Hi Blaine,

You wrote:

"I could probably teach a beginner to tune adequately with an ETM in about a week."

Well, perhaps, if that beginner is extraordinarily talented and persistent. And we would have to define "adequately."

Learning to use an app is straightforward enough. Gaining control over tuning pin and string tends to be more elusive (at least, that is what I have observed in the 100 or so people I have trained over the past four decades).

ETM/ETA/ETD proficiency aside, if you could indeed teach someone to tune stably in a week, I would pay good money to see that happen.

Best,

Alan

Andrew,

Something I heard when I was just starting out was that it takes 10 years to learn how to tune.  I thought that this was nonsense as I had been tuning for over a year and knew what I was doing.  After two years  I looked back and though "Well it did take 2 years, but I know how to tune".  After 5 years I realized that it did take me those 5 years of experience  to get where I was but I was OK.  After 10 years I  looked back and admitted that it did take me 10 years  to  get decent.

Malcom Gladwell proposed the 10,000 hour rule: it takes 10,000 hours of practice to master a subject.  In a survey of a music school there was found to be three categories of students, 4,000 hour students that intended to go on to be music teachers, 8,000 hour students that would become professional orchestral or performing musicians and 10,000 hour students that would go on to be solo performing artists.  Another example he gave was the Beatles, who worked for 8 years in a club in Germany before returning to England and becoming famous. 

If you add up the hours that a tuner works in 10 years it comes out to nearly 10,000 hours of tuning.

I could probably teach a beginner to tune adequately with an ETM in about a week.  It will  still take about 10 years to develop the business experience and skills, customer relations and deep experience of piano function and responses to your efforts. 

Its a fun journey, though I am still learning HOW to tune after 50+ years.

No one has mentioned allowing the whole structure to settle. 

One pass to change the pitch as quick as possible with out medium or hard blows, not being concerned about unisons (20-25 minutes).  Then either use fore arm smashes or large chords for about 30 seconds to excite the plate, strings, and soundboard.  Let the whole structure rest for at least 5 minutes.  Then fine tune with heavier blows to test the stability (40 minutes).

Works for me.  That five minutes lets me clean, make up the invoice, or find a rest room (age sensitive). Piano is very very stable in the end.  

Andrew,

Here's another tip: Contact Jon Page in MA and talk to him about buying and using CBL (Counter Bearing Lube). Jonpage@pianocapecod.com

Peter Grey Piano Doctor 

It should be noted that temperature affects the metal, humidity, the wood. A sudden drop in temperature and the pitch will go sharp because the steel strings are contracting. Changes in humidity take much longer to manifest in wood moisture content. It's not likely that humidity is going to cause a change in the pitch in one day maybe not even in one week.

Shifts in pitch due to temperature are easy to demonstrate. Find a clean unison and then take your finger and gently rub one of the strings along. It's length. You don't need to do this for very long. Listen to the union again and you'll hear that the string has gone flat. However, once the string cools, it will be back in tune, that happens relatively quickly. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

It should be noted that temperature affects the metal, humidity, the wood. A sudden drop in temperature and the pitch will go sharp because the steel strings are contracting. Changes in humidity take much longer to manifest in wood moisture content. It's not likely that humidity is going to cause a change in the pitch in one day maybe not even in one week.

Shifts in pitch due to temperature are easy to demonstrate. Find a clean unison and then take your finger and gently rub one of the strings along. It's length. You don't need to do this for very long. Listen to the union again and you'll hear that the string has gone flat. However, once the string cools, it will be back in tune, that happens relatively quickly. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Significant swings of humidity can also have a rapid effect. At 2pm, I tuned for an outdoor performance. The temperature was 105 and the humidity was 24%. By 8pm, the temperature had hit 80 and the humidity had hit the dew point (100%). The piano was wet and completely out of tune. From then on, I've recommended a very robust Dampp-Chaser system for such circumstances, as well as a cotton sheet to absorb and wick the moisture.

It should be noted that temperature affects the metal, humidity, the wood. A sudden drop in temperature and the pitch will go sharp because the steel strings are contracting. Changes in humidity take much longer to manifest in wood moisture content. It's not likely that humidity is going to cause a change in the pitch in one day maybe not even in one week.

Shifts in pitch due to temperature are easy to demonstrate. Find a clean unison and then take your finger and gently rub one of the strings along. It's length. You don't need to do this for very long. Listen to the union again and you'll hear that the string has gone flat. However, once the string cools, it will be back in tune, that happens relatively quickly. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

It should be noted that temperature affects the metal, humidity, the wood. A sudden drop in temperature and the pitch will go sharp because the steel strings are contracting. Changes in humidity take much longer to manifest in wood moisture content. It's not likely that humidity is going to cause a change in the pitch in one day maybe not even in one week.

Shifts in pitch due to temperature are easy to demonstrate. Find a clean unison and then take your finger and gently rub one of the strings along. It's length. You don't need to do this for very long. Listen to the union again and you'll hear that the string has gone flat. However, once the string cools, it will be back in tune, that happens relatively quickly. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

It should be noted that temperature affects the metal, humidity, the wood. A sudden drop in temperature and the pitch will go sharp because the steel strings are contracting. Changes in humidity take much longer to manifest in wood moisture content. It's not likely that humidity is going to cause a change in the pitch in one day maybe not even in one week.

Shifts in pitch due to temperature are easy to demonstrate. Find a clean unison and then take your finger and gently rub one of the strings along. It's length. You don't need to do this for very long. Listen to the union again and you'll hear that the string has gone flat. However, once the string cools, it will be back in tune, that happens relatively quickly. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320
------------------------------

Hi, David Love. While what you share has validity, I find mostly the opposite to be true with respect to humidity. I have long believed what you say about temperatures impacting pitch, but also that humidity has a much greater impact. I have been getting a great deal of empirical evidence of this since starting at the university, which is in a new, closely environmentally controlled building. I get alerts every time the RH varies from within 40% - 50% range even by .1%. The sensors themselves are accurate withing 3%. I also carry 3 individual thermo-hygrometers with data loggers and have some installed on pianos in key locations. I had noticed before starting here that summer always made pianos go sharp and winter always flat, even in temperature-controlled environments. Temperature does play a minor role, but it is more significant as it relates to relative humidity. This is painfully clear when the Air Handling Units (AHUs) go offline and I have an enormous amount of extra work to do. But the temperature does not change, only the RH. The HVAC is separate from the Humidity Control Units (HCUs) but are fed through the same ventilation. Humidity does affect not only the swelling of the soundboard, but every other wood component of the piano. Often it is movement of the plate that contributes in addition to the soundboard moving. Tightening plate screws within reason goes a long way to building stability (along with diligent tuning). Remembering that in most environments, temperature impacts humidity because it is "relative" to temperature and air pressure is very important in determining what happens in a piano and predicting movement going forward. 

It should be noted that temperature affects the metal, humidity, the wood. A sudden drop in temperature and the pitch will go sharp because the steel strings are contracting. Changes in humidity take much longer to manifest in wood moisture content. It's not likely that humidity is going to cause a change in the pitch in one day maybe not even in one week.

Shifts in pitch due to temperature are easy to demonstrate. Find a clean unison and then take your finger and gently rub one of the strings along. It's length. You don't need to do this for very long. Listen to the union again and you'll hear that the string has gone flat. However, once the string cools, it will be back in tune, that happens relatively quickly. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Dave, could you clarify a couple of things? How much change in RH are you talking about and in what range? How long a period does an HCU failure last before it begins to show changes in the pianos?

This whole conversation makes me realize how much of our job (and outlook) revolves around measuring things.

Hi, David Love. While what you share has validity, I find mostly the opposite to be true with respect to humidity. I have long believed what you say about temperatures impacting pitch, but also that humidity has a much greater impact. I have been getting a great deal of empirical evidence of this since starting at the university, which is in a new, closely environmentally controlled building. I get alerts every time the RH varies from within 40% - 50% range even by .1%. The sensors themselves are accurate withing 3%. I also carry 3 individual thermo-hygrometers with data loggers and have some installed on pianos in key locations. I had noticed before starting here that summer always made pianos go sharp and winter always flat, even in temperature-controlled environments. Temperature does play a minor role, but it is more significant as it relates to relative humidity. This is painfully clear when the Air Handling Units (AHUs) go offline and I have an enormous amount of extra work to do. But the temperature does not change, only the RH. The HVAC is separate from the Humidity Control Units (HCUs) but are fed through the same ventilation. Humidity does affect not only the swelling of the soundboard, but every other wood component of the piano. Often it is movement of the plate that contributes in addition to the soundboard moving. Tightening plate screws within reason goes a long way to building stability (along with diligent tuning). Remembering that in most environments, temperature impacts humidity because it is "relative" to temperature and air pressure is very important in determining what happens in a piano and predicting movement going forward. 

Original Message:
Sent: 11/18/2025 2:53:00 PM
From: Steven Rosenthal
Subject: RE: Tuning instability - advice from the veterans

Dave, could you clarify a couple of things? How much change in RH are you talking about and in what range? How long a period does an HCU failure last before it begins to show changes in the pianos?

This whole conversation makes me realize how much of our job (and outlook) revolves around measuring things.

------------------------------
Steven Rosenthal RPT
Honolulu HI
(808) 521-7129
------------------------------


Original Message:
Sent: 11-18-2025 08:33
From: Dave Conte
Subject: Tuning instability - advice from the veterans

Hi, David Love. While what you share has validity, I find mostly the opposite to be true with respect to humidity. I have long believed what you say about temperatures impacting pitch, but also that humidity has a much greater impact. I have been getting a great deal of empirical evidence of this since starting at the university, which is in a new, closely environmentally controlled building. I get alerts every time the RH varies from within 40% - 50% range even by .1%. The sensors themselves are accurate withing 3%. I also carry 3 individual thermo-hygrometers with data loggers and have some installed on pianos in key locations. I had noticed before starting here that summer always made pianos go sharp and winter always flat, even in temperature-controlled environments. Temperature does play a minor role, but it is more significant as it relates to relative humidity. This is painfully clear when the Air Handling Units (AHUs) go offline and I have an enormous amount of extra work to do. But the temperature does not change, only the RH. The HVAC is separate from the Humidity Control Units (HCUs) but are fed through the same ventilation. Humidity does affect not only the swelling of the soundboard, but every other wood component of the piano. Often it is movement of the plate that contributes in addition to the soundboard moving. Tightening plate screws within reason goes a long way to building stability (along with diligent tuning). Remembering that in most environments, temperature impacts humidity because it is "relative" to temperature and air pressure is very important in determining what happens in a piano and predicting movement going forward. 

------------------------------
Dave Conte, RPT

Piano Technician in Residence
The University of Tennessee
College of Music
Knoxville TN
(817) 307-5656
Owner: Rocky Top Piano


Original Message:
Sent: 11-16-2025 01:06
From: David Love
Subject: Tuning instability - advice from the veterans

It should be noted that temperature affects the metal, humidity, the wood. A sudden drop in temperature and the pitch will go sharp because the steel strings are contracting. Changes in humidity take much longer to manifest in wood moisture content. It's not likely that humidity is going to cause a change in the pitch in one day maybe not even in one week.

Shifts in pitch due to temperature are easy to demonstrate. Find a clean unison and then take your finger and gently rub one of the strings along. It's length. You don't need to do this for very long. Listen to the union again and you'll hear that the string has gone flat. However, once the string cools, it will be back in tune, that happens relatively quickly. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Hi, David Love. While what you share has validity, I find mostly the opposite to be true with respect to humidity. I have long believed what you say about temperatures impacting pitch, but also that humidity has a much greater impact. I have been getting a great deal of empirical evidence of this since starting at the university, which is in a new, closely environmentally controlled building. I get alerts every time the RH varies from within 40% - 50% range even by .1%. The sensors themselves are accurate withing 3%. I also carry 3 individual thermo-hygrometers with data loggers and have some installed on pianos in key locations. I had noticed before starting here that summer always made pianos go sharp and winter always flat, even in temperature-controlled environments. Temperature does play a minor role, but it is more significant as it relates to relative humidity. This is painfully clear when the Air Handling Units (AHUs) go offline and I have an enormous amount of extra work to do. But the temperature does not change, only the RH. The HVAC is separate from the Humidity Control Units (HCUs) but are fed through the same ventilation. Humidity does affect not only the swelling of the soundboard, but every other wood component of the piano. Often it is movement of the plate that contributes in addition to the soundboard moving. Tightening plate screws within reason goes a long way to building stability (along with diligent tuning). Remembering that in most environments, temperature impacts humidity because it is "relative" to temperature and air pressure is very important in determining what happens in a piano and predicting movement going forward. 

It should be noted that temperature affects the metal, humidity, the wood. A sudden drop in temperature and the pitch will go sharp because the steel strings are contracting. Changes in humidity take much longer to manifest in wood moisture content. It's not likely that humidity is going to cause a change in the pitch in one day maybe not even in one week.

Shifts in pitch due to temperature are easy to demonstrate. Find a clean unison and then take your finger and gently rub one of the strings along. It's length. You don't need to do this for very long. Listen to the union again and you'll hear that the string has gone flat. However, once the string cools, it will be back in tune, that happens relatively quickly. 

------------------------------
David Love RPT
www.davidlovepianos.com
davidlovepianos@comcast.net
415 407 8320

Dave Conte

Humidity affects the EMC of the wood. The dimensional change in the wood related to that is the basis for dampp chasers effectiveness. The wood doesn't react instantaneously, it takes time for wood to gain or lose moisture and expand or contract--sometimes weeks.  That's why soundboard assemblies sit in the hot box for awhile before they are stable and ready for the next phase as well s why the installation of a DC requires the piano to dot for several weeks. Humidity has no affect on steel. 

HVAC systems, when in the cooling cycle, are actually removing moisture from the air. That suggests that the pitch would go flat as the wood shrinks even with the temperature dropping. But it doesn't. The cooler air causes the steel to contract, the pitch goes sharp, CAUTs who work with old HVAC systems know this (Stanford has a very antiquated system). 

Both factors can be in play which means that the more extreme changes will probably win out depending on the time frame. But if the humidity remains constant and the temperature drops, the piano will go sharp and vice versa. If the temperature remains constant and the humidity drops the piano will go flat, and vice versa. However, time is a factor because the wood dimensions change much more slowly. The steel reacts almost instantaneously. 

If things are going in opposite directions, temperature dropping (pushing the pitch sharp) along with humidity dropping (pushing the pitch flat), the net change will depend on the time frame in which it is measured and the degree to which each of those factors change. 

Hi, David Love. While what you share has validity, I find mostly the opposite to be true with respect to humidity. I have long believed what you say about temperatures impacting pitch, but also that humidity has a much greater impact. I have been getting a great deal of empirical evidence of this since starting at the university, which is in a new, closely environmentally controlled building. I get alerts every time the RH varies from within 40% - 50% range even by .1%. The sensors themselves are accurate withing 3%. I also carry 3 individual thermo-hygrometers with data loggers and have some installed on pianos in key locations. I had noticed before starting here that summer always made pianos go sharp and winter always flat, even in temperature-controlled environments. Temperature does play a minor role, but it is more significant as it relates to relative humidity. This is painfully clear when the Air Handling Units (AHUs) go offline and I have an enormous amount of extra work to do. But the temperature does not change, only the RH. The HVAC is separate from the Humidity Control Units (HCUs) but are fed through the same ventilation. Humidity does affect not only the swelling of the soundboard, but every other wood component of the piano. Often it is movement of the plate that contributes in addition to the soundboard moving. Tightening plate screws within reason goes a long way to building stability (along with diligent tuning). Remembering that in most environments, temperature impacts humidity because it is "relative" to temperature and air pressure is very important in determining what happens in a piano and predicting movement going forward. 

Dave Conte

Humidity affects the EMC of the wood. The dimensional change in the wood related to that is the basis for dampp chasers effectiveness. The wood doesn't react instantaneously, it takes time for wood to gain or lose moisture and expand or contract--sometimes weeks.  That's why soundboard assemblies sit in the hot box for awhile before they are stable and ready for the next phase as well s why the installation of a DC requires the piano to dot for several weeks. Humidity has no affect on steel. 

HVAC systems, when in the cooling cycle, are actually removing moisture from the air. That suggests that the pitch would go flat as the wood shrinks even with the temperature dropping. But it doesn't. The cooler air causes the steel to contract, the pitch goes sharp, CAUTs who work with old HVAC systems know this (Stanford has a very antiquated system). 

Both factors can be in play which means that the more extreme changes will probably win out depending on the time frame. But if the humidity remains constant and the temperature drops, the piano will go sharp and vice versa. If the temperature remains constant and the humidity drops the piano will go flat, and vice versa. However, time is a factor because the wood dimensions change much more slowly. The steel reacts almost instantaneously. 

If things are going in opposite directions, temperature dropping (pushing the pitch sharp) along with humidity dropping (pushing the pitch flat), the net change will depend on the time frame in which it is measured and the degree to which each of those factors change. 

Hi, David Love. While what you share has validity, I find mostly the opposite to be true with respect to humidity. I have long believed what you say about temperatures impacting pitch, but also that humidity has a much greater impact. I have been getting a great deal of empirical evidence of this since starting at the university, which is in a new, closely environmentally controlled building. I get alerts every time the RH varies from within 40% - 50% range even by .1%. The sensors themselves are accurate withing 3%. I also carry 3 individual thermo-hygrometers with data loggers and have some installed on pianos in key locations. I had noticed before starting here that summer always made pianos go sharp and winter always flat, even in temperature-controlled environments. Temperature does play a minor role, but it is more significant as it relates to relative humidity. This is painfully clear when the Air Handling Units (AHUs) go offline and I have an enormous amount of extra work to do. But the temperature does not change, only the RH. The HVAC is separate from the Humidity Control Units (HCUs) but are fed through the same ventilation. Humidity does affect not only the swelling of the soundboard, but every other wood component of the piano. Often it is movement of the plate that contributes in addition to the soundboard moving. Tightening plate screws within reason goes a long way to building stability (along with diligent tuning). Remembering that in most environments, temperature impacts humidity because it is "relative" to temperature and air pressure is very important in determining what happens in a piano and predicting movement going forward.