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1865 Steinway square

  • 1.  1865 Steinway square

    Member
    Posted 09-30-2022 20:51

    Hi All,

     I'm looking for a little guidance with this piano. 


    My history: 
    Im 38 years old. I've been working on and with pianos for the past 20 years. The first 12 we're under guidance of an RPT here. It was taught to rebuild, refinish, restrung, move, and tune. I've completed the 2 of the 3 RPT exams with a 95+ percent each (pre-Covid). Aural tuning is my last and I'm working on sharpening those skills in preparation to take the aural exam at next years nation convention.  

     I've rebuilt many pianos over the years and was contacted about tuning the square mentioned in the title. I was the 10th tech they called (I'm about an hour and a half away and the wife was trying to get someone more local to their location first). I was able to take a look at it today and, at minimum, needs net hammer heads, damper felts, and strings. The wife picked it up at an estate sale for free as a birthday gift to herself 6 years ago. 

     They are not hurting for money and have high interest in getting this beast into a playable and tunable state regardless of the cost. I advised they it definitely wouldn't be cost effective bland they know that but still want to press forward. 


    My questions:
    Is there anyone currently that can/will make a set of hammers for this rig? I remember reading years ago that Jurgen might have a source but I know that he has recently stepped away from the supply industry. 

    The bridges and soundboard are in good looking shape. There is still a slight crown in the board. What else should I be looking for aside from strings (JD Grandt is my usual "go-to"), pins (original oblong pins are in it), damper felts (special sizes?), and hammer heads?

    I've rebuilt a few old timers recently (1880's Weber grand and a 1860's Camp & Co. upright) but this is a different animal. I'm open to the adventure and they want the work done.

     Any guidance/direction would be appreciated (aside from "run away as fast as you can).



    ------------------------------
    Tyler Ayala
    Watsonville CA
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-30-2022 21:10
    Hi Tyler.

    First thing I would do is make a list of all the repairs, etc, you want to make, and about how long it will take you to make those repairs. Then double it. Then  multiply the time by your hourly rate. If you don't have an hourly rate, use your tuning fee. Then find out how much the parts are going to cost, and double those. Put it all together and write up an estimate. (don't forget moving the piano to your shop, and back). Chances are that as much as they say they want it fixed, when they see how much it will be, and that it will take 4 - 6 months to complete the work, they will reconsider. 

    But it they still want to proceed, get a least half down.  Once you've got the piano in your shop, ask questions along with pictures. There are enough of us on this list who have done this kind of work who will be able to give you the answers and guidance to finish the project. 

    Wim






  • 3.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-30-2022 22:04
    Wim is right. Don't try to deal with it like a standard modern piano...it ain't!  And it's going to take you far longer than you think to do this work. 

    Chris Chernobieff recently did something like this. Perhaps he will chime in...

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 09-30-2022 22:11
    Tyler, Wim is offering a lot of good advice. Inspect every piece of felt in the piano, sometimes you can't bring the action up to specs because the felt has shrunk/distorted to a point that throws everything off. You might have to replace whole sets of felt that we usually can live with on younger pianos. Also inspect the flanges very closely; are you going to have to rebush them all? Maybe there should be a contingency clause in the contract as well.
    If they ask how you came up with such a figure, tell them it was a guy with blue teddy bear.

    ------------------------------
    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Posted 09-30-2022 22:23
    Isn't that kind of a strategy of self defeat??
    If i understand this correctly. A customer wants it restored, has the money, and you say its not worth it ??  Or charge them through the roof so they will turn away??.

    When you learn the ins and outs of restoring a square piano,  they can be pretty neat instruments. I just finished one up about a month ago. I did soundboard repairs, rebuilt the action ( had to make a few parts) and re-scaled it with Stainless Steel wire and used Heller bass strings with iron wraps. I used Abel hammers, but in hindsight, i would prefer to re-leather the original hammers over installing new hammers. I had a pianist come over and play it to make some videos on my youtube channel, he couldn't stop playing it. Which surprised him more than me. 
    In my opinion working on a square is fun and rewarding work. There are many tips on my square piano video series.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw2vNjX1KBU&list=PL4km3jbQ3Am79l0Q9WIX5Rb7_uhRzhAdE
    Good luck,
    -chris

    ------------------------------
    Chernobieff Piano Restorations
    "Where Tone is Key, and Mammoths are not extinct."
    865-986-7720 (text only please)
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-01-2022 07:26
    Chris

    I never said the piano is not worth restoring. What I basically said was, customers don't have a clue as to how expensive it is and how long it takes to do the work.  After giving an honest estimate, and the customer agrees to pay it, then get half down and start working on it.  I'm sure in the end, it will turn out great and the customer will be happy. 

    But the most important point I also made is the time estimate. It takes at least twice as long to restore a square as it does a regular piano.  I once spent three hour trying to do one part of the regulating process on a square action, that would have taken me less than an hour on a modern action. It took me twice as long to figure out how to remove the plate. Etc. 

    Wim 





  • 7.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Member
    Posted 10-01-2022 00:00

    Thanks to those that have replied thus far. Lots of things to keep in mind.

     I realize that the time involved will be more than a modern or traditional piano and will plan accordingly. To clear up any misunderstandings: The client isn't looking for a full blow restoration. Currently, it is a nice looking piece of furniture and they would like it to be a functional piano, sound "ok", and be able to be tuned up to A440. Rescaling will be on the list as well. They know it will never sound like a full sized modern piano and are ok with that. 

    Chris: In telling the client that it wouldn't be cost effective to do the work, it was purely to inform them that, if they were to out the money into it and try to flip it/sell it, they most likely wouldn't never see their dollars again. I wasn't trying to discourage them from doing the work but more so to be transparent from a purely financial perspective. 


     I may reach out to those that have responded for more insight and will definitely check out Chris' YouTube vids that I may have missed. 



    ------------------------------
    Tyler Ayala
    Watsonville CA
    (831) 535-9807
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-01-2022 00:47
    I don't think I would try to bring it up to 440, the design is inherently weak and the added tension may be too much. I will defer to others who have gone this route. I have tuned some squares in my life, even have the oblong tip still, but the tuning is hard on the back, and when I tuned them, I basically tuned them to themselves, at whatever pitch they were in (over-all!)
    David D.





  • 9.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Posted 10-01-2022 06:30
    One of my early jobs was replacing hammer heads and damper felts on an 1870-75 Henry F. Miller square grand. Ronsen made the hammer heads and I installed them using a jig I devised. A decent amount of sanding of the heads was involved to get clearances between them but with square grands that goes with the territory.

    ------------------------------
    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-01-2022 07:44
    Hi Tyler,

    I would reach out to Bill Shull at bdshull@aol.com



    --
    Stephen Snyder,RPT
    342 Scott Lake Road
    Salem, NY 12865

    518-854-3888(home office)
    518-321-3813(mobile)





  • 11.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Posted 10-01-2022 08:20
    It's really worth restoring this instrument.

    "History is a foreign country" and these instruments enable us to visit that country. Musically they are a tool to rediscovery. 

    https://youtu.be/xwh4Xb1waC0?t=959 is not a square but an instrument of the previous decade and the effect produced sounds similar to Chris' videos.  Musicologically these instruments are of golden importance beyond mere money for those who are musicians serious enough to understand what they're able to discover about different aspects of the repertoire and playing technique. 

    Here's a Steinway Square at the former Colt collection https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAFcR3sw5PI and it was a most impressive instrument.

    Bearing in mind that one can spend $$,$$$s on a modern Steinway, a historic Steinway restored and refurbished well should be valued comparably. The fact that it might not be merely demonstrates the musicological ignorance of those who don't. They are of a quality for Chris Maene to have restored one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nINA___2TP8 and one can only boggle perhaps at the expense of having done so - the point being that cognoscenti understand the value of these instruments and of preserving them.

    Best wishes

    David P 





  • 12.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-01-2022 09:42
    May I rudely point out that only one person answered the original question? I suppose I just did. 😜 

    Bill can probably help, but if not, try this source:
    https://antiquepianoshop.com/restoration-packages/square-grand-piano-restoration-package/

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-01-2022 10:27
    Right Maggie, 

    Ray Negron at Ronsen can and does make hammers for squares.  You'll doubtlessly want to use either Paulello wire in the softer types, or stainless steel. You'll probably need to custom cut your dampers. 

    Gregor Heller has metric sizes of tuning pins that graduate more evenly than standard 1/0 2/0 3/0 etc. if needed. 

    And simply be prepared to spend at least twice as long on every operation than what you're used to. Sounds like you have the skills needed. I would do it if they're prepared to foot the bill (open ended is the only way I would do it). 

    Remember though that pitch levels were all over the place internationally at the time that instrument was built, and it probably was much lower than 440hz when new. Could it be brought up successfully? ...probably...

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 14.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Posted 10-01-2022 10:48
    It's a misconception that pitch levels were lower in 1865. Broadwoods famously had three tuning forks and 19th century harmoniums and many organs were at least 1/4 tone sharp.

    If it has an iron frame it's probably built to take 440 and higher.

    https://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/10949/1/399579.pdf page 117 - pitches at 434, 445 and 451

    Apologies for not answering the original question.

    By the way, although oblong pins are a pain I tuned a 1821 Broadwood restored with square pins and the tuning experience was jarring. Replacement by square pins shouldn't be a decision to be taken lightly. It's not a modern piano and when tuning an antique instrument it's helpful to be reminded of such in the process.

    Best wishes

    David P

    --
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    +44 1342 850594





  • 15.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Posted 10-01-2022 11:02
    I'm going to kindly disagree that rebuilding a square piano takes 3 times longer than a grand. I spend about the same amount of time (roughly about a month). . And the cost of rebuilding therefore comes out about the same. I do have special jigs for making missing parts, and an endmill which often comes in handy.. I made a video of making a rocker and jack by hand. So that's not even that hard. For some reason the felt that supports the knuckle  is especially tasty to some critters and so they usually have to be bolstered.

    Abel makes hammers smaller than Ronsen, but they are still going to be gigantic to what is in the square.  Much carving will still have be done. I'm looking at using an older style of layered hammer, instead of a modern hammer in future projects for a more authentic sound.
    Squares can absolutely 100% be tuned to A-440, they just have to be scaled for it. I used Stainless steel, and tested each gauge on my testing machine. then ran it in my scaling software.  The average tension was 112lbs. Heller scaled the bass section with singles coming in at 177lbs, and doubles at 144lbs. The whole tension was 18,000 lbs. Breaking % range was 50%-65
    %.

    -chris




    ------------------------------
    Chernobieff Piano Restorations
    "Where Tone is Key, and Mammoths are not extinct."
    865-986-7720 (text only please)
    ------------------------------



  • 16.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-01-2022 11:13
    'I'm going to kindly disagree that rebuilding a square piano takes 3 times longer than a grand. I spend about the same amount of time (roughly about a month)".

    But how many have you done?  Tyler hasn't done any. 

    The time I rebuilt a square, I lost money because I didn't anticipate all the little problems I was not aware of. Maybe not 3 times as much time, but for a person who has never done this before, at least twice as long is not unreasonable. 





  • 17.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Posted 10-01-2022 11:32
    But how many have you done?  Tyler hasn't done any. 

    Good Point, experience delivers a better product,more quickly and thus makes it profitable.


    -chris


    ------------------------------
    Chernobieff Piano Restorations
    "Where Tone is Key, and Mammoths are not extinct."
    865-986-7720 (text only please)
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-02-2022 02:17
    Tyler

    I'm going to point you to conservationist John Watson. He's retired a few years ago as the Associate Curator of Musical Instruments at Colonial Williamsburg in VA, so has huge experience in all US-based keyboard instruments pre 1920. I visited in August and his assistant and he have finished restoring a spate of square pianos for private clients to the point that they are getting sick of them! They will know strings, tuning pins, scaling, and hammer and felt choices and sources.


    Michael



    Sent from my iPhone





  • 19.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-02-2022 13:29
    I've been following this thread and appreciate many of the posts.  Michael's recommendation to consult with John R. Watson is excellent.  Reading his piece in the Journal would help too.  We can be grateful to the PTG Foundation for this link to a couple of Watson's pieces:


    There are many principles there that should be helpful, but a basic understanding of the differences between conservation, restorative conservation and restoration/rebuilding should be clear to the technician, if for no other reason than to help the client in the decisionmaking process.

    An 1865 American square belly is typically very modern in that it has a cast iron plate and was scaled for A-435, and sometimes was tuned higher.  But as Chris points out, the scaling must be observed.  It especially becomes evident in the very short higher treble string lengths, which betray string material which might also sound better throughout, especially the tenor, as well.  I'm less concerned about substantial downbearing and soundboard crown;  first, grand and vertical soundboards with a substantial crown only began in the 1863-1865 period, and squares are generally lightly ribbed and, even in the post-1865 era, lightly crowned.

    Chris, you refer to using stainless steel.  Supplies of the product from Pure Sound seem to have dried up.  Rumor has it that you have a good source.  Can you reveal it to the rest of us?  Essential to stringing these transitional pianos is good wire, and Paulello wire isn't as readily available as we'd like (the lower tension versions are not carried by J.D. Grandt).  If you DO have a good source of stainless steel, we'd love to know it (here at Period Piano Collection too), along with your experience with its durability (tendency to break even with careful handling).

    Oblong pins can be re-used.  They will be smaller in diameter and combined with pinblock epoxy consolidation should be no trouble to achieve a good torque and feel.   It's no fun to tune oblong pins, but we can develop the skill set.   About the same time this 1865 piano was built, Steinway published a tuner price guide, listing what they paid the piano tuner for squares, uprights and grands.  The lowest fee was for the square.  Huh?

    Regards,

    Bill

    Bill Shull, Period Piano Collection
    909 796-4226





  • 20.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-02-2022 13:33
    I mis-spoke here, and should have said "lower ductility"
    (the lower tension versions are not carried by J.D. Grandt





  • 21.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-03-2022 15:14
    In regard to oblong pins, I saw a lever owned by Kalman Detrich that had a ratcheting action in order to give the tuner a fighting chance at tuning without wrecking one’s back (too much.) I don’t know the source of the lever, I don’t believe I’ve ever seen one in a catalog, but there must be a few out there….

    Joe Wiencek




  • 22.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-03-2022 18:54
    The hammers of the day for oval pins were double headed with the ovals at right angles to each other.  Just flip it over. No need for that these days. 

    Peter Grey Piano Doctor

    ------------------------------
    Peter Grey
    Stratham NH
    (603) 686-2395
    pianodoctor57@gmail.com
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Posted 10-01-2022 11:14
    Beware of assuming that the angles of the damper heads correspond to the angles of the strings.  They may be slightly off--  or a bit more than slightly.

    ------------------------------
    Don Dalton
    Chester VT
    ------------------------------



  • 24.  RE: 1865 Steinway square

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 10-02-2022 01:32
    Tyler,
    Others have had much more experience with re-scaling and rebuilding pianos than I, but I would like to ask a question (or make a suggestion):
    If you measured the string size on your piano, then went down and installed one or two string sizes lower (to thinner strings) the overall tension should be lower.  Since this is no longer a new frame, belly or case the strength might not be what it was in its heyday. The difference in tone from one or 2 1/1000 wouldn't be enough to notice, but the overall tension on the piano would be lower by quite a bit.
    Or am I wrong?

    ------------------------------
    Blaine Hebert RPT
    Duarte CA
    (626) 795-5170
    ------------------------------