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Occasional use ETD

  • 1.  Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-30-2022 11:53
    Hi, 

    I tune pianos aurally and plan to stick with aural tuning.  However, for me, ETDs are very useful for pitch raises and sometimes finding the best (compromised) temperament for a spinet. I've used the free version of Tunelab which works really well, but even at the $300 price point, I'd rather put money into tools.  Is there any decent ETD at a lower price point that I could use for occasional pitch raises, etc.?  I don't have an iPhone/ iPad, just an Android, so Piatune won't work. 

    Thanks!


    ------------------------------
    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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  • 2.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-30-2022 12:18
    Tim

    I understand your desire to put your money into tools, rather than an ETD.  But don't forget, a good ETD is a tool. It doesn't take the place of aural tuning. It enhances it. Using it only for pitch raises and difficult temperaments is like using your microwave only to heat up a cup of coffee, or at most, make popcorn. 

    When used properly, an ETD can help you with your tunings. I now use it on all piano to not only set the temperament but tune the middle 2 or 3 octaves. I then double check to make sure the temperament is where it's supposed to be. And while I can tune the upper 2 octaves aurally, I find that tuning those octaves with my SAT give me better results. 

    One last reason I use my ETD all the time. Before I started using it, (about 30 years ago) with the increased workload from mid-October through December, I got so tired, mentally, concentrating so much when I tuned pianos, that I almost didn't get to enjoy Christmas Day. But after I started using my SAT, I found that mentally I was much happier. To me that was a game changer. 

    So, if you're going to buy a "tool", put some money into getting a good one that you can use all the time, and you'll be surprised at how much more fun tuning can be. 

    Wim



    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-30-2022 12:31
    You might try PianoMeter.  There's a subscription option of $50/year.  I use it on my Android Tab4.  Works very well, on Android and IOS. 
    I also have a sub for PianoScope, which is $150/yr or even a monthly sub less than $20. PianoScope doesn't run on Android.  I use my IPhone 6 with PianoScope. 
    Both of these have a pitch raise feature, and they both work well.  PianoScope measures every note before tuning begins, not just the "A's".  For average pitch raises, they can get you very close. 
    The interface readouts are extremely sensitive and accurate, so you can really dial in every string if you want.  I find that it takes me a bit longer to do a complete tuning, as I wait and analyze what the readout is telling me.  False beats make for a challenge especially in the upper registers.  My Accutuner is much easier to read, since the display is not so jumpy.  I have found that using the Accutuner or any of these two apps produce a tuning that is extremely close to each other in the upper half of the piano.  I find most of the differences are in the bass stretch.


    ------------------------------
    Paul McCloud, RPT
    Accutone Piano Service
    www.AccutonePianoService.com
    pavadasa@gmail.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 4.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Posted 12-30-2022 12:42
    The Jahn or Vogel CTS5 is second to none in my opinion, able to achieve impeccable accuracy and with solid reliability. Sometimes they come up on Ebay second hand for around the $250 mark. You might have to go on ebay.co.uk or ebay.fr or ebay.de.

    Best wishes

    David P


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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594



    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-30-2022 13:10
    I would like to second the pianometer vote. It's great for pitch raises & I got a version for $25. The price has probably gone up to $50 but that's still very reasonable. The only things you gain with the professional version are overpull, saving tunings, and a few other things. True, you won't have overpull for better pitch raises, but I've found I can guestimate fairly well. 

    I would like to also add that the more you tune aurally, the better you get. If you depend too much on an ETD or are a tad addicted to them like I am, it will slow your progress and you won't be as good an aural tuner as you might be without the ETD. Don't ask me how I know. 😉

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    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-30-2022 15:11
    If I may, what puts Tunelab in a class of its own is its Spectrum Analysis display, with all three strings of a unison showing all at once. 

    Accurate Pitch Corrections without mutes !

    And the time you will save not waiting to allow for the free versions limitations ....what is your time worth ? 

    Happy New Year !


    Allan Sutton, m.mus. RPT
    www.pianotechniquemontreal.com

    "a good ETD is a tool" (Wim Blees)





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  • 7.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Posted 12-30-2022 16:49
    Alan - One might like to think that the idea of tuning unisons without mutes relying on a FFT display is made in jest . . . ?

    Best wishes

    David P
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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594



    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-30-2022 16:55
    David P. - Nope! Alan is serious. It's the one thing I like the best compared to any ETD. The display allows a very fast muteless pass on big pitch changes to get close. Works great. 

    Alan - The cheap version of Piano Meter is only limited for pitch raises in that it doesn't have overpull. However, I agree that if you want to pay a little more to get overpull as a primary tool, the display on Tunelab is far more usefull.

    ------------------------------
    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 9.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-30-2022 17:15
    Thank you Maggie,

    Pianometer is one that I have not tried yet...

    Best,

    Allan Sutton, m.mus. RPT
    www.pianotechniquemontreal.com





    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-31-2022 08:42
    In my opinion the graph in PianoMeter is incredibly useful in terms of assessing the stability of a tuning, especially pitch-raised or poorly rendering instruments.

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    Walter Bagnall
    Chillicothe OH
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    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Member
    Posted 01-02-2023 12:16
    I hate to speak up against my own product, but TuneLab being capable of "Accurate Pitch Corrections without mutes" is a bit of an exaggeration.  It certainly is not good enough for a final pass, and it should only really be done with very large pitch-raises.  The kind where you know you are going to have to do a second pass anyway.  In pitch-raises like that, the inherent inaccuracy of pitch-drop projections is greater than the inaccuracy of tuning by matching overlapping peaks in a frequency spectrum.

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    Robert Scott
    Real-Time Specialties (TuneLab)
    fixthatpiano@yahoo.com
    Hopkins MN
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    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-03-2023 20:33
    Thank you for this precision, Robert.

    Talking about a pitch-raise for me implied that there would be another pass where I do unisons aurally. As a matter of fact, it is now my usual procedure to do a minimum of two passes. I should have been more specific.

    Anyway Tunelab is fantastic.

    Best regards,

    Allan Sutton, m.mus. RPT
    www.pianotechniquemontreal.com



    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Posted 12-30-2022 22:50
    I'll jump in here... My recommendation would also be PianoMeter. Easy to use, accurate and reasonably priced. You could try this: Just set it up for a new tuning and let it listen to you as you tune the piano aurally. There would really be no need to take readings before you begin tuning because in listening mode it would get all the information it needs while you tune. See what it comes up with. I've thought about that for aural tuners that want to "dip their toe" into the ETA (I prefer ETA to ETD, Electronic Tuning App or Aid. Better describes the software.) world.

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    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    Lincoln, Nebraska
    www.thattuningguy.com
    PianoMeter, TuneLab & PianoScope User
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-31-2022 12:14
    Tim,
    Just wanted to jump in and clarify that the $25 version of PianoMeter (aimed at hobbyists tuning or touching up their own pianos) doesn't calculate overpull for pitch raises, which would be limiting for your intended use. You can mentally calculate the overpull and target that manually, but that's slower, harder to do visually, and somewhat less accurate in my experience. It's more difficult visually because if you're not targeting zero cents, the "strobe" rings don't stop spinning when you hit your target. The $300 version does have a pitch raise mode with overpull, but that's a bit expensive for something you intend to use only occasionally.

    If I'm doing a pitch raise manually I shoot for about 25% of how flat each note is in the midsection, 33% in the mid to upper treble, and 10% for copper wound bass strings. So if a note is 30 cents flat, I tune it either 3 cents, 7 cents, or 10 cents sharp. I hope this helps. My conflict of interest is declared in my signature ;-)👇

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    Anthony Willey, RPT
    http://willeypianotuning.com
    http://pianometer.com
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 15.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Posted 12-31-2022 09:49
    Hi Tim

    PiaTune is really your best and cheapest option for superior temperament of smoothed progressive intervals (really important on lesser pianos - PianoScope is the only other one I know that does this and is much more expensive) as well as pitch raising. It is still being improved and the developer welcomes beta testers that can help guide how the app will work - currently he's working on a starting pitch graph to improve pitch raising. One option that I haven't explored is the aural tuning sequence start that he has in the app. It would be nice if more techs could test and guide his changes to the app.

    I know you said you don't have an i-device, but it will run on any iphone 6s and above. Currently, used 6s or 7 phones are going for $80-100. You wouldn't need one with a lot of storage to use as a dedicated tuning device. 

    For your consideration for another option

    Ron Koval

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    Ron Koval
    CHICAGO IL
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    Original Message


  • 16.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Posted 12-31-2022 10:14
    Forgot to add - by dedicated tuning device, I mean running the phone without a sim card. This makes it work similar to an ipod touch or small ipad. Still works with wifi when you need to connect for updates or to use as a streaming device etc...

    Ron Koval

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    Ron Koval
    CHICAGO IL
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    Original Message


  • 17.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-02-2023 12:52
    Hi Ron, thank you for your input. As it turns out, my regular android phone has not been charging well lately and it is way out of date. I called my cell phone provider and it looks like I'll be upgrading to an iPhone. I really appreciated the YouTube tutorial you had on the Piatune app and I really like some of its unique features such as beat counting. I think I'll give it a try.

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 18.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Posted 12-31-2022 13:31
    I didn't use an ETD for 30 years because I had learned to tune aurally and was very confident in that.  But when I started at the university I got one and some things I've learned are these:

    It gets it really close really fast. I use the ETD first, then apply my aural tuning techniques. Since it "remembers" the tuning in a program file, it's like following a tried and true recipe when cooking.

    It saves wear and tear on the tuning pins.  I used to think maybe I could make that interval a little better, only to finally decide it was OK after all.  So I turned the tuning pin for nothing, wasting time and possibly wearing out the pinblock and destabilizing the string tension in the process.  Now, if it is where it would be on the dial anyway, that pin gets a pass until the next tuning.

    You can duplicate tunings.  This is very helpful when you are tuning one piano for a recording session over several days and the piano needs to be seamless, or when you are tuning more than one piano to each other in a concert.  Once I had to tune 4 pianos together for a Bach piece.  Then there is no room for interpretation.  One tuning might sound a little better on one than the other, but the important thing was they all blended together.

    It spares your ears.  It might not seem like such a big deal now, but I think all those test blows and having to listen to out of tune unisons over the years is hard on your eardrums.  During the ETD phase of the tuning I wear earplugs now, since I'm counting on the ETD to get it really close, which it does.  So I don't need to torture my eardrums, especially on a loud piano like in a concert hall.  Of course I take them out to finish.

    With a dial you can watch, during "industrial" tunings like practice rooms, where you might have 10 tunings and you just have to get them all done, you get them done faster.

    It saves wear and tear on your brain. Nothing gets me tired faster than having to make the same decision over and over again.  This is especially frustrating if the environment is busy or noisy.  With an ETD, it hears only the note and tells you if you need to change it.  This is very helpful in a situation like a club or resort where maybe you're tuning for a wedding reception, but there is music playing over the club's sound system or they are setting up tables and chairs and giving instructions to the staff, or a band is setting up.  Since the ETD hears only the piano, you don't need it to be as quiet as a library.  That makes you a much friendlier person to the other people working there.

    I was very idealistic and thought I'd never use an ETD.  But now I've learned that you can use an ETD and be an aural tuner at the same time.  Just use the ETD as a tool to move things along and get the job done, then apply your aural skills to finish up.  Back to the idea of following a recipe, whether you drive to the store instead of walk to get your ingredients, that doesn't affect your skills as a chef, but saves a lot of time.



    Original Message


  • 19.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-31-2022 16:12
    First of all, I want to concur with Robert C. Our histories are remarkably similar and I have come to the same conclusions.

    Regarding obtaining used devices. I have been using iPods for several years, Apple has discontinued them so I took my 2 iPods in for battery replacement even though they were both still working to extend their lives. 
    What I found out was they don't actually open them up and change the battery, they give you a brand new one for the price of a battery replacement, for my 6th generation iPod, that was about $80, no questions asked. So I ended up with 2 brand new devices at $80 each. This can be done online or at an Apple store. I suppose at some point they will run out of their stockpile of iPods but until then it's a great deal, I did this a couple of months ago. It probably applies to other devices too at least for certain models​, they only go back to gen 6 iPods for example.
    Shouldn't be too hard to find someone with an old device kicking around in a drawer.

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    Steven Rosenthal RPT
    Honolulu HI
    (808) 521-7129
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    Original Message


  • 20.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-01-2023 00:36
    I think those are very salient observations. I might amplify that the pitch correction function of some devices (my experience and bias is with the RCT) is important too. Since any pitch correction drifts from ~5 -35 cents in various sections and can be compensated for with a properly programmed etd, then, at a minimum, using them for first passes is not only a crucial time saver (if we're running a business and not a hobby) but essential for an accurate result with the aural tuning which would follow. 

    Aural skills are a worthwhile and worthy goal but to eschew the available technology is nothing more than stubborn pride and no more productive. Bite the bullet and purchase the tool that does the best job. You'll get it back in the long run. 



    Original Message


  • 21.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Posted 12-31-2022 16:01
    Hi Tim,

    I was of the same opinion as you, my aural tunings were great, my ears came free, why spend the money on an ETD when there were  tools that I had been wanting to buy for years. My friends in my chapter all kept asking why I was working so hard and I didn't understand what they meant. Our chapter is smaller than many we have a core group of maybe 12-14 "veterans", over 65 for the most part, who all use ETD's. At one of our meetings we had the opportunity for each member to bring their ETD for us non-users and the others who had other ETD's, to compare. I found something that others may not realize, ETD's do not all tune the same! If you decide on one without trying it out first, you may be stuck, as an aural tuner, constantly fixing what the ETD does! In my case by having the opportunity to sample each of the ETD's there that day I found the Cybertuner fit my aural tuning, I didn't need to make corrections or adjustments. Understand I was 40 years into my career, began at 19, when I got my first and only ETD a Cybertuner. I am now 74 as of last Monday use my ETD everyday on every tuning, Wurlitzer spinets to Steinway D's with a few Petrof's and a lot of Yamaha's, Boston's, Etc. Like you I only have had an Android phone but the Cybertuner switched to being Apple based a while back so I now have an iPad that has the Cybertuner programming on it. I also have it on an old iPhone for convenience, some pianos don't have room for the iPad. 
    My point is save your ears, use hearing protection, GOOD hearing protection, musician's ear plug they cost more to have them fitted but last longer and protect better. Find an ETD that fits your aural tuning and use it as a tool, a mental tool to relieve you from setting multiple temperaments every day. That is what my friends were talking about when they said I was going home so tired every day, the mental stress setting temperaments on multiple pianos of different sizes, makes etc. Let a good ETD do that for you. Good Luck, Happy New Year, Michael Magness

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    Michael Magness
    West Salem WI
    (608) 786-4404
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    Original Message


  • 22.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-31-2022 16:21

    Since price appears to be important to you, and yes, most ETD's are a serious investment, let me add to the discussion by saying that an ETD, (both machine and software), is a "tool". That means that the purchase of that tool counts as a business expense and can be used as a business write-off on your taxes. Plus, with rare exceptions, you will likely never need to purchase it again. The hardware, yes, that needs to be replaced once in a while. But the software, except for the occasional updates, probably not. I've been using Cybertuner for 20+ years and I still run it on my original hardware, an iPAQ Pocket PC. I've had to replace the CMOS battery two or three times, and just this year I had to replace the screen, but it still runs perfectly and gives me the assistance and results I enjoy in my tunings.

    Most of the ETD makers now only provide software for iProducts, and while I believe Apple has decided to no longer manufacture the iPod Touch, they are still out there and available at a considerably less expensive investment than an iPhone. The iPod Touch is essentially the same hardware as an iPhone except it does not have the components to actually BE a phone. It still has internet access, access to games, navigation and everything you will need to run any ETD software you decide on, except phone and texting service. I am now on my second iPod Touch, on which I run Veritune when I do P-12 tunings. 



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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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    Original Message


  • 23.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 12-31-2022 16:46
    Everyone, thank you so much for your input.  I didn't see my particular work situation as relevant to this discussion, but perhaps it is.  I am a full time piano teacher/musician.  I have a private studio with more than 40 students and work part-time as an adjunct assistant professor of piano at a local college.  While I'm not looking at a career change, I'm looking to cut back some of my hours and dedicate more time to piano technology.  As of now, I am probably never looking at tuning more than two pianos in a day, so ear strain and mental fatigue with aural tuning is not much of an issue as I see it. I am not tuning/fixing pianos because I have to but because I love the work and want to diversify my work.  

    With that said, I do believe that ETDs are a tool and this thread has been helpful for me to view them more that way.  I'm hesitant to buy an apple device just for tuning, since then I'll have to remember to charge it.  ;)  Just one more thing to remember that I'll probably forget.  I may just buy the full version of Tunelab since I'm used to it and I do like the feature of muteless pitch raises (no joke, David!).  ;-)

    Michael, you bring up an interesting point that I just haven't considered-- finding an ETD that fits my style.  Since I've only used Tunelab, I haven't compared my tuning styles with other ETDs.  I started aural tuning primarily for two reasons, 1) since I'll be taking the tuning exam early next year, and 2) because I was not very happy with the Tunelab results (nor have I spent the time to figure out how to edit partials, etc.).  In the process, I found that aural tuning gave me both a much better result and was more intellectually stimulating/satisfying.  Do you have any recommendation on how I might match my tuning to an appropriate ETD without having to buy/borrow each one?

    Thanks again everyone!



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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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    Original Message


  • 24.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Posted 12-31-2022 17:46
    There are a few points which really resonate.

    - Using an ETD gives repeatable results and enables notes which are spot on to remain untouched rather than wobbled for the sake of it just to check. This also brings longevity to the strings. I had an embarrassment tuning a Bosendorfer in a concert venue with 40 year old strings, tuned frequently for concerts and of which 4 of the 11 bass strings had been replaced. I knew that I'd tuned the bass perfectly with my ETD in the morning but before the concert with raised temperature wanted to check and was checking by ear. And that one more wobble of the string was the metal fatigue that finally broke it. Having a ETD upon which one can put total trust can be a string-saver provided one has faith in that trust. So piano stability benefits.

    - Not all ETDs are the same. I used to use the 2010 vintage of Tunelab and did inharmonicity measurements for all the instruments I came across, but I found the results inconsistent and, with my unequal temperament tunings, sometimes unpleasant where they shouldn't have been. The FFT display of Tunelab is really helpful when strings have false beats in the treble and one can achieve best coincidence, although for years now I've coped without that particular tool and only in this thread been reminded about it. Not having easy control of stretch and its crucial role in unequal temperament tuning is why likewise I haven't progressed with PianoMeter although  . . . 

    - the Pianometer graph is exceptionally useful to record and have a comprehensible picture of a tuning before tuning an instrument and after. It often shows up what I regard to be excessive stretch of the treble that I find from tuners who have attended instruments before me. It's a good reason to have Pianometer on hand even if one doesn't use it for tuning.
     
    I was fortunate as a boy in the 1970s to be able to watch our then tuner who during that time converted to using an ETD. It was an enormous device about 18 inches wide, 8 inches high and the same deep. It had a 7 segment LED display of which segments rotated as the measured phase coincided or not with the generated frequency. When my unequal tuning started to get serious and wanting to depart from TuneLab I managed to acquire a similar VISTA machine. https://youtu.be/xjhNt-ZksVw?t=20 shows it. Whatever I said in that video please ignore as I'm sure that I've developed a little over the past decade. The relevance of that machine is its approach to stretching which is quite interesting. It's listening to the C#3 to C4 frequencies and aligning all bottom harmonics with that central octave and doing perhaps what we might be doing by ear without reference to a computed curve and then in the upper octaves it's following a procedure which I still go through with the CTS5 device which is commonplace in Europe https://youtu.be/4d0YLryDOYU?t=59. On the VISTA machine the right hand knob chooses the upper octaves. Upon going up the scale into the next region one fine tunes the tuner to the 2nd partial of the octave below. The CTS5 machine has 5 preset stretching curves and I use the same technique to ensure that I'm on the right curve for whatever instrument I'm tuning, erring on the side of being slightly sharp if a disparity.

    Meanwhile a new model of CTS5 has been released and although the response in the top treble is better, the stretch curves have been modified, less usefully for the instruments I come across, and the unequal temperament cent variations altered. So not all tuning devices are equal even if of the same brand.

    The bottom line with any tuning aid or tuning device is to know what it's listening to, know what it's doing and wanting to do so that you're in control of it rather than it being in control of you.

    Recently I noted someone comment that rather than tuning sequentially with an ETD as one is tempted to, that one can usefully perform the sequence of the temperament octave in the sequence of an aural tuning so as to be familiar with the aural beat rates. This is perhaps one of the best pieces of advice I've come across and which for one I'll certainly be adopting in the coming year.

    Greetings,

    David  P



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    David Pinnegar, B.Sc., A.R.C.S.
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    +44 1342 850594



    Original Message


  • 25.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Posted 01-01-2023 19:47
    Hi Tim, 

    I believe some of the ETD companies have a trial period. I think Cybertuner did when I began with it but that was about a decade or two ago. So check around and see if they do offer some sort of trial or partial download of their products. I'm assuming you have the hardware to download them, if not used can be sketchy. I can recommend 
    blackmarket.com  they offer professionally refurbished electronics. At differing quality levels for reasonable prices most with a money back guarantee and a warranty. The warranty will depend on the level of quality, obviously but as an example, I bought a refurbished iPhone in good condition, no scratches, and got a 12 month warranty! They have iPads, iPods, apple computers, windows computers, color tv's etc. I found the prices with the warranty better than Amazon and other online stores. Good luck, Mike 

    Sent from my U.S.Cellular© Smartphone
    Get Outlook for Android



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  • 26.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Posted 01-01-2023 10:28
    As a wise person once told me: "The good news is, there's lots of choices and the bad news is, there's lots of choices."

    I have used several apps, TuneLab, PianoMeter, PianoScope, Tunic OnlyPure and PiaTune. I'd love to try out Verituner  and Cyber tuner but they're really pricy to just try out. Overall and the one I mainly use is PianoMeter. It's reasonably priced, handles the breaks on pianos very well, is easy to use, has a great over-pull function, historical temperaments, and an easy file system with backup on Dropbox. The way it reads inharmonicity is just to start a new file and play notes, so if you tune aurally you could just start a new file, begin tuning aurally and it would listen as you tune, so I don't think there would even be a need to pre-measure notes. For $50 you could use the full function app for a year and then decide what to do after that.

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    "That Tuning Guy"
    Scott Kerns
    Lincoln, Nebraska
    www.thattuningguy.com
    PianoMeter, TuneLab & PianoScope User
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 27.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Posted 12-31-2022 22:24
    I am aural only as well.  I have heard a lot of benefits of using an ETD and I know it would help me in the upper treble, but I have this approach/avoidance thing about it.  How hard is it to learn to use one, what is the best type...

    ------------------------------
    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 28.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-01-2023 01:27
    I'd like to add a thought about all ETD's being different. Yes, they are different, but they are more or less different depending on their settings. If you aren't sure how to use the ETD, and you just stick with default settings, they will definitely be different. You can change settings in any ETD to get a different tuning style. 

    The biggest difference I have noticed between the few ETD's I've tried (including iRCT, TuneLab, PianoMeter, and soon will play with PianoScope) is how they handle the first wound string. Most do well most of the time, but they struggle if there is a scaling issue. Some handle that better than others, and some handle it better on some pianos but not others. I haven't completely figured that one out yet, but changing the settings can sometimes make a difference. 

    I would have never bought some of the devices I have if I hadn't found them on backmarket.com . They have top quality used devices for reasonable prices. I got a macbook pro, an ipad mini 4, and a ipod touch from them. All are like new. I thought I would share that for anyone interested.

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    Maggie Jusiel, RPT
    Athens, WV
    (304)952-8615
    mags@timandmaggie.net
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    Original Message


  • 29.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-01-2023 07:40
    >> I have heard a lot of benefits of using an ETD and I know it would help me in the upper treble, but I have this approach/avoidance thing about it.  How hard is it to learn to use one, what is the best type...<<

    One of the first things the new ETD user learns is how quickly we find out what our hammer technique is really doing.  The machines will tell you when the string begins to move faster than your ear,(other than, perhaps, when listening really closely to a unison).  They can also help one analyze the elements involved in stability, as they will, with a simple flexing of th pin, readily indicate if the top string is neutral, positive, or negative. 

       As far as telling one the pitch of a note, they are far beyond the ear, but completely lacking in judgement of what the pitch should be! Once programmed for a particular scale, they greatly speed up the accuracy of pitch raising or lowering, but the machines should not be trusted as the final arbiter when tuning a unison,  as the ear will do a better job of the "blend" necessary to make them alike.  

       The "best" machine is different for most, as it depends on how we process feedback and most of us do that differently from each other. I use a SAT, as I am familiar with the buttons, and can manipulate it as I tune in a variety of ways without thinking about it.  in the words of Kelly Ward, who ushered me into my life's work,  "The machine is just a tool, how a tech uses it determines how well the work is done",  After tuning aurally in studios here in Nashville for 16 years, (for $3 more than my competition!!) I bought the first programable SAT to help with growing arthritis and it made me a better tuner.  This is because I could systematically critique my own work and continually refine it on the machine. 
    Regards, 



    Original Message


  • 30.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-01-2023 01:47
    “How hard is it to learn to use one, what is the best type?”

    I would say it’s probably about as hard as learning to tune unisons. You watch a (one hour or less) training video, follow the instructions to set it up, and then practice. The closer you follow the instructions, the easier the learning curve will be. (Don’t try to use your own method or “doctor” the tuning until the end while you’re learning to use it.) Like tuning unisons, the concept is relatively simple; it’s the practice that’s the learning curve. But it will click suddenly at one point, and you’ll get it.

    As far as the best one, you’ll get at least one answer from every person you ask, LOL. I started out using the Sanderson Accu-Tuner. I found it difficult to use, as you had to program it like an old computer, and the pitch raise function was terrible by today’s standards. Then I switched to CyberTuner and have been very pleased with that for years now. Very little aural touch up needed, and the pitch raise function is amazing. I’ve also heard good things about Verituner and TuneLab, though I’ve not tried either of them personally. Others have been suggested in this thread also. The best way to find the right one for you is to look into and try as many as you can before buying.



    Benjamin Sanchez, RPT
    Piano Technician / Artisan
    (256) 947-9999
    www.professional-piano-services.com


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  • 31.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Posted 01-01-2023 20:25
    Thanks Benjamin

    I will give Cybertuner a go.

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    Patrick Greene
    OWNER
    Knoxville TN
    (865) 384-6582
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  • 32.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-05-2023 16:39
    I upgraded to an iPhone and bought the Piatuner app.  I really like the concept of this app and the interval beat counting feature should be a really helpful tool for aural training (I spent a lot of time testing this today).  I'm supposed to take my tuning exam next month.  Thank you all for your input!

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    Tim Foster
    New Oxford PA
    (470) 231-6074
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    Original Message


  • 33.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-05-2023 22:08
    I think it is wonderful that you are committed to learning to tune aurally and to go for the tuning exam. I wish you good luck.
    I, too, learned to tune aurally first and was able to pass the tuning exam. Unfortunately, I might have passed it too quickly in about 4 months. I only took the test to see how I was coming along, never imagining that I would pass. I enjoyed tuning aurally and wished I had done it a bit longer so it was ingrained in me.  I started using the ETD soon after I became an RPT and I don't regret my decision. One reason I switched to using the ETD (you still always use your aural skills) is because I was given the task of subbing for a very high-end technician in a very demanding studio. If you ever have to "sub" for someone else, having their tuning file to work off of helps to ensure a stable outcome. When an aural-only tech subbed, their tuning might be altered enough that it made the piano more unstable. Something to consider down the line for you.

    I can't stress the value of using the ETD to help you become not only a better tuner by visually confirming what you hear, but also by making your tuning more stable and not be susceptible to physiological changes that can occur without our awareness. I recently got an emergency call to tune for a recording session because the last 2-3 notes were very sharp. The regular (aural) tuner was out of town for the holidays. The piano did not "drift" sharp; it was tuned sharp with intention. The pianist could hear the difference and those notes were used in the piece he was recording. This is a well-known aural tuner. I don't know if we can chalk it up to subjectivity or changes in the hearing, but it was distracting enough that I was called upon. No one wants to admit that as we age our hearing is compromised. Our work doesn't have to be if we know how to use an ETD.

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    Kayoko Forrest
    Past President
    Los Angeles Chapter PTG
    1112 Montana Avenue #322
    Santa Monica, CA 90403
    (310) 829-4644
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    Original Message


  • 34.  RE: Occasional use ETD

    Registered Piano Technician
    Posted 01-05-2023 22:28
    I concur with Kay when she says "No one wants to admit that as we age our hearing is compromised. Our work doesn't have to be if we know how to use an ETD." I would like to add to that the recommendation that you wear hearing protection. When tuning we are sitting close to an open piano and have our heads fairly close to the strings. Peak loudness readings I have taken on some pianos, on initial attack of a note, even just during tuning and not even a test blow, can easily exceeded 80db and sometimes as high at 85db if you're used to being aggressive. That's really loud, even if it's only for an instant. A couple hours of this, several days a week, and without hearing protection you may develop hearing problems long before you get old enough to experience them naturally. 

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    Geoff Sykes, RPT
    Los Angeles CA
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    Original Message